Nazi train derailed

[Last_Knight]

1939, Poland invaded by both Germany and the Soviet Union. Britain and France declare war on Germany. Battle of Narvik between British and German Ships.

1940, German invasion of Lowlands and France. Belgium falls, France falls, Denmark falls and the remainder of British forces all 300,000 running short on ammo and supplies begin a retreat to Dunkirk. After escaping certain defeat the isle of Britain becomes a fortress.

1940-1941, The Battle of Britain.

After all of Europe had fallen Britain was the last stand, the last stand against the most powerful nation in the world, Nazi Germany. Which had charged across Europe with Blitzkrieg, close air support with mass tank assualts.
When they came to the Channel they had one last objective Britain and without the ability to use Blitzkrieg and an inferior Navy they relied on aircraft and Goering.
3,700 Luftwaffe Aircraft against 704 R.A.F the odds were completely against us but we pulled through and together as a nation we again became such a powerful nation. We fought on in North Africa, supplied the Soviet Union and kept the island nice and warm for when the Americans wanted to join in.

We deserve the worlds respect for such heroism.

"Never has so much been owed by so many to so few"

[museum-]

And so the world war began.

[Last_Knight]

A bloody battle to start a bloody war, 55 Million dead from all over.

[Shevchenko]

Firstly, "all of Europe" had not fallen.
The USSR was yet to be attacked (and even after Barbarossa most of European Russia stayed out of reach), and Spain, Turkey & Switzerland were neutral.

With the benefit of hindsight, the Germans concede that Operation Sealion had no chance of succeeding and was amateurish in the extreme; had the Nazis crossed the channel they would have been on the wrong end of a bloodbath.
Not taking away from the courage of "the few" - and we should be grateful to the Polish, Canadians & others who helped - but this country would never have been taken over by the goose-steppers.

[Last_Knight]

When Churchill said that I'm sure he was taking into account the Polish, Canadians, Czechs, and the 7 Americans involved.
Spain was an ally of Germany although it claimed neutrality, it helped invaded France in 1940. Two resevre regiments from Spain attacked France but were soundly defeated.
Turkey isn't in Europe. And Switzerland were neutral. And Russia is mostly Asian, so I'm going to say that isn't European either.

How do you figure they would of been on the wrong end? Had the Germans landed we would of been soundly defeated. Who was going to protect us? A few hundred thousand worn out troops and the Home Guard against 3.3 Million elite battle hardened veterans. Although our tanks were good, the tactics used by Germany was superior and they knew the best way to use the equipment they possesed. When the Germans had of landed our superior in numbers Navy and well organised R.A.F would not of been much help. The German Panzer divisions would of been charging across Britain. May I remind you in 1940 Rommel was in charge of the 7th Panzer Division which would of been sure to go Britain had they landed. A great general and great trouble for us.

It would of become another war France, little resistance fighters causing mayhem however ours would of been a lot more organised and better for the job.
In the open field we would of been defeated.

Might I add in June 1941 the Soviet Union had 28,880 tanks, in July 1942 it had 1506. We sent over 486 and the Americans sent over 183 tanks. The Soviet Union would of been broken without those tanks, especially since the famous KVs and T-34s were not being produced in numbers because the industry was moving east to escaped German capture.

I'm glad I might be able to get a discussion out of someone.

[Shevchenko]

Originally posted by Last_Knight

Turkey isn't in Europe. And Switzerland were neutral. And Russia is mostly Asian, so I'm going to say that isn't European either.

Europe's two largest cities, Moscow and Istanbul, ARE in Europe, as is the fifth(?) largest - Leningrad/Petersburg; so you're being a little bit bendy with your geography

Originally posted by Last_Knight

How do you figure they would of been on the wrong end? Had the Germans landed we would of been soundly defeated...
...It would of become another war France, little resistance fighters causing mayhem however ours would of been a lot more organised and better for the job.
In the open field we would of been defeated.

As with all of history's what-ifs it is subjective, but I've been told that every time they re-enact the battle for France as a war game the allies win, and it was rotten tactics let them get over-run.
Secondly I think it would have been a logistical nightmare for the Germans, we had under-water petrol pipes to frazzle them on the beaches. Remember the bloodbath of D-Day, and that was when we had total Naval superiority.
On a documentary the surviving Germans involved in planning SeaLion said they would have been slaughtered.

Originally posted by Last_Knight

Might I add in June 1941 the Soviet Union had 28,880 tanks, in July 1942 it had 1506. We sent over 486 and the Americans sent over 183 tanks. The Soviet Union would of been broken without those tanks, especially since the famous KVs and T-34s were not being produced in numbers because the industry was moving east to escaped German capture.

I've seen this discussion many times, the only supplies the allies gave to the USSR that really made a difference was raw materials, and the Soviets say this really helped turn the tide, but they were politely contemptuous of the quality of the tanks, jeeps & planes they were sent, mainly because of their unsuitability for the climate.

Also, the Serb uprising crucially delayed Barbarossa (I always mention the Serbs since our moronic media have decided to demonise them)

Ironically, the Soviet attack on Finland, and the kicking the USSR got, was a great lesson to the Soviets in how to kill an invading army; and that guts, more than technology, wins wars.

[Last_Knight]

No, I still think the many tanks that we gave them and the 3,000 Hurricanes and 1300 Spitfires did make a difference in the time we gave them to them. 1941 and 1942 were hard times for the Soviet Union.
The tanks were good, the Soviets liked the Valentine it was superior to any Soviet light tank. They enjoyed its great armour protection and great handling but were polite about its armament.
The Matildas frontal armour was invunerable to any German weapon until 1942. The 50mm cannons on the Pz. IIIs and their Pak 38s had to be within 100m to pierce its armour. The Soviets loved this advantage, although again the armament left something to be desired. However it was a brilliant infantry support tank and the Soviets were still using them in 1945.

Don't forget the 500,660 trucks given to the Soviet Union they were basically what mobilised the Red Army. They were the wars winners from the lend-lease to the Red Army. And made a huge difference.

Turkey isn't European. I'm never going to class Turkey as being European. And really the border of Europe should curve around Russia. Having it a Eurasian country is silly.

The 'blood bath' on D-Day wasn't that bad considering what they actually did. 10,000 died on the beaches of Omaha alone but the other beaches, Juno, Sword, Gold and Utah were't as bad. The only reason that was such a loss of life was due to a lot of the tanks sinking in the channel and inadequete Naval bombardment.
Had the Germans won the Battle of Britain in the sky, our Navy would of had no chance. The British defences on the beaches weren't comparable to the ones on the Normandy coast in 1944.

In 1940 Britain acted the best it could. It didn't have control of Belgian or French forces which out numbered the British greatly with only 300,000 troops. Where as the French had 800,000 alone on the Maignoit (Spelling?) Line they were expecting a First World War style conflict.
Britain had already attacked Germany in Norway and were winning until the invasion of Belgium occured and they pulled out.
You have to hand it to Germany though for great use of their Armour and air support it certainly was a lightning strike. The French HQ couldn't organise any effective counter attack, and on one occasion when he did the German panzers were already 40 miles behind him.

Well serious German mistakes and Russias ability to use them wisely was their winning factor. They were mainly losing in 1941 and 1942 because of Stalins ban of the tactics discovered by the pre-Stalin generals that were now executed or in a nice little Gulag in Siberia.
When Stalin finally allowed the Deep Battle and Deep Operation tactics to be used, you finally saw the Soviets shine. And the Germans make so many mistake, which we can see now but not all could of been said. Everything is a risk in war.

[Shevchenko]

I'll try and dig up some stuff about the Eastern Front, though it takes me ages to translate the Russian stuff I'm not fluent.

One thing though: 'Stamboul is THE European city, and as it's founder Constantine the Great was half-English (from his mother Helena) we cannot move the city to the other side of the Bosporus and lose it to Asia

[Last_Knight]

We'll steal it and call all around it Asia but keep that European.

And saying there's a lot, should I assume you didn't read it all?
I'm a nut about World War 2 what do you expect. I said I was going to light a fire under this place.

[Shevchenko]

I've read it, I was just saying there is a lot of it

I didn't know about the Matildas etc, I'll spend some time tomorrow on a rummage through the "Great Patriotic War" sites, (it is the trucks I've heard abuse about from veterans, more than the tanks).

Regarding "Europe" - the area of Turkey in Europe is ancient Thracia and we're not giving it away!
As for Russia being "Eurasian" it should be remembered that the word "Russia" was adopted due to historically-dodgy attempts to show a link back to Kievskiy Rus', but the reality is it is the remains of the Muscovite Empire, where a tiny City-State expanded and conquered all before it all the way to present-day San Francisco.
The gradual taming of Siberia by the Cossacks is one of the greatest pioneering operations of all time.
It is one of the greatest Empires in History, and as Moscow is several hundred miles from Asia, it is European and we'll keep it European

Not even Stalin or Hitler proposed moving Continents about, you megalomaniac!!!

[Last_Knight]

You gave me your vote. I told you I'd become power hungry.

I have several books on the subject and I have several books dedicated to the armour of each nation. They don't have stories about the armour just development and first combat. They are so detailed, like the nerd I am I spent like 30 minutes today going through each type of ammunition for every 50mm cannon and under in the Axis arsenal (That's right, the books even detail the ammo used, and optics) just for an argument because someone claimed that the Matilda was poor. So I went into a huge (even bigger than my post up there) about all the different ammo and guns penertration capability at different lengths.

I was the one that turned out to be right