What if..?

[ninswe104]

Well the Swedes would have won at poltawa. The eastern flank of the russian army had been overrun but the cavalary didnt attack in time and the swedes attack on the flanck was uterly destroyed by the russian cavalary.

PS: Did you know that Swedens last continental possesion was the city Wismar that officially belonged to sweden into the 20th century.

[matias]

Would the Swedish Empire still exist?

I doubt it. The period of Swedish empire was quite short after all. Think about how great empires Britain or Spain had and do they exist now?

Would it have fallen anyway?

Oh yes, I think so. Sweden could not have built an empire without Finnish soldiers (for example general Stålhandske and his Hackapelitans who terrorized Germany and Poland). And Finland had a strong economical and patriotic move in the latter half of 1800's, and was able to declare independence from the mighty Russian empire, and defended this independence against red army two times after that. If Finland was able to defend themselves against much bigger Russia, how could Sweden have kept it under control? On the other hand, Finns consider Swedes as their friends and a war against Sweden is an irrational thought -now. Our relations might have developed otherwise, too.

Would the Finns be hearing Swedish voices in the radio right about now?

Since Finland has a Swedish- speaking minority of 300 000 people, Swedish can be heard in Finnish radio stations every now and then. But the minority has shrunk considerably: in the early 1800's it was 20 %, now 6 %. I guess that if Finland would have continued as a part of Sweden for a little longer than 1809, the minority would be bigger now, but it would still be a minority.

Be realistic, Swedes!!

[Merecir]

If Russia had never conquered East-Sweden then the Finns would never seriusly have thought of themselves as Finns at all. Finland would have been an intergral part of Sweden and the historical name Finland would have had the same status as Svealand, Götaland and Norrland.

You got to remember that ALL of the nobles and rich people where Swedish, and ALL teaching in schools where in Swedish.
The Swedish population lived in the most developed part of the area and would have grown to dominate both the coming industrialization and population boom (who would be even more catalyzed now with Swedish investing then what happened in OT from Russia).

Ad to that that the Finns have never really mounted any kind of revolt against their Swedish rulers.

As for this timelines conflicts with Russia.
One can asume that this Greater-Sweden (with possibly Norway to!) would spank Russia even harder then OT Finland did...

--

What-if timeline:
1809: Sveaborg holds and Sweden successfuly defend against the Russian attack. No Bernadotte on the Swedish throne and Sweden is more aggressive against France.
1814: Sweden gains Norway as a price for partaking activly in the war against Napoleon. Sweden attacks and crushes a Norwegian rebellion, Norway in annexed.
1914: Sweden stays out of ww1.
1939-45 ww2: Sweden basicly does what Finland did, except no land-losses. Germany does not attack Swedish Norway because of the war with SU. Western allies treat Sweden as they did Finland and act like in OT. The peace is like Finlands except many of the consessions.
1949: Sweden is asked to join NATO, but declines.
1966: Sweden becomes a nuclear power. (6 votes from it in OT)
1995: The Swedish people vote NO to the EU.
2002: In the winter olympics Sweden defeats Belarus in the ice-hockey semi and win the gold after humiliating Canada with 5-0.

[-Lonely-]

matias, maybe you do, but I don't think that 100 years is short, especially for a country with such a tiny population.

Merecir, interesting input! Although I'll probably be hassled by some members of the board about what I'll have to say right now, but : Sweden should have become a nuclear power, and have a large nuclear deterrent to keep the Soviets in check and assure a safe Scandinavia.

[vargtass]

As a swede, I must say that Sweden is the most powerful country in the nordic area, though the danes should not be underestimated, and the finnish people would never give up in a war agains Sweden, same for norway and Denmark. In previus history, the 4 countries can be divided like this in my eyes:

Finland: Guerilla Warfare - Remember when Russia invaded Finland during WW2 (i think it was WW2, correct me if Iam wrong). They never gave up, they kept fighting.

Norweigans: Sabotage - Under WW2 the norweigian people fought in elite bands, trained in England, shipped by planes to Norway for sabotaging missions!

Danes: Espionage - Didnt they spot the Bismarck so it could be sunk? Keeping the allies informed about the different materials shipped up to Norway?

Sweden: Tactics - King Karl Gustav the Second Adolf and many others won many great battles, for example while under smokecover, build a bridge under heavy fire and won against the wretched germans

So all countries are more specialised in many ways, well history wise. Its impossible to predict who´s the most powerful atm....

[Petabyte]

Originally posted by vargtass

Danes: Espionage - Didnt they spot the Bismarck so it could be sunk?

No it was Sweden so you were wrong there. I think it was the battel ship stockholm that spoted her.

[vargtass]

yeah, thats it!

[Merecir]

One thing one can be sure about is that Sweden WOULD have got nukes if Sweden had a direct border against the USSR, or if Sweden had been slightly more involved in ww2...
(And thus Switzerland too, they had plans to buy nukes from Sweden.)

Sweden is one of the very few countries who can legally aquire nukes acording to that famous nuclear treaty.

[ninswe104]

Vargtass: it was actually in both of the wars.

Lonely: It was norway who colonized greenland and iceland to btb

[Didac]

Yes, Merecir, we did have a late stage nuclear weapon programme, and was kept alive quite a long time.

more on that here:

http://www.folkkampanjen.se/nwchap2.html#HD_NM_30
(in English for our English-speaking friends)

[ninswe104]

Didac: thats a conspiracy theory

[Didac]

yeah, at least some parts of the text. I believe in the Sannäs-area (mentioned in the text) the local community still man a guardpost, keeping the area non-nuclear..

[ninswe104]

It was probably just a nuclear dump in sannäs

[-Lonely-]

Originally posted by ninswe104
Lonely: It was norway who colonized greenland and iceland to btb

Who? What? Oh. I didn't say anything.

Merecir, have you seen the schematics for the Swedish nuclear bomber? I have, you could probably find it on the net. It looks like a J35 Draken on steroids. I think the plan was to cross Finland and bomb the living **** out of Leningrad with it.

Sweden is one of the very few countries who can legally aquire nukes acording to that famous nuclear treaty.

Is that true? I thought it was totally illegal.

[ninswe104]

Originally posted by meredith
Denmark colonized it, and it is still part of the Kingdom of Denmark, but it was granted self-government in 1978. Denmark still controls its foreign affairs. I haven't heard of a special arrangement with Iceland, though. I guess Icelanders go over there cuz it's close by, and both have the ties to Denmark.

Sorry lonely I were wrong it was the post under you im tired.