"What have the Romans done for us?"

[PaulMc]

"What have the Romans done for us ..... ?"

Right, Wally, this is the detention classroom!! Pay attention!

Just in case anyone is so unfortunate as never to have seen it, John Cleeese hijacked this line for a classic Monty Python sketch, many years ago!! For that reason, I've used Quote Marks and am still grinning at the memories the phrase brings back!

Now, Wally, as for the history which the Italian system has no doubt indoctrinated you to believe is a true version of the Roman "civilising" influence on the geographical land mass currently yclept Britain.

Let me state from the outset that I have no nationalistic axe to grind here! In fact, my family is pure-blood Celt (Royal line , High Kingdom of Tara) and we are relative newcomers to mainland UK (ever heard of the Potato Famine? Say no more ....)

The Roman occupation of Britain, however, was neither as secure nor as easy for the Romans as some accounts would have us believe.

Granted, the Romans were "playing away from home" and would certainly have had problems with supplies and backup, reinforcements and other logistical problems. However ....

First of all, their opponents were not an organised (or even united) opposition - the tribes involved probably hated each other as much as they hated the 'foreign invaders' and the Romans would certainly have benefitted from some basic "Divide & Conquer" tactics similar to those used by others throughout history.

Second: Yes, the benefits of decent roads, an efficient admin. network and a lingua franca throughout the parts of the UK where Rome held sway was a big plus!
But at the same time you have to remember that they controlled (being generous) perhaps half the geographical landmass, and certainly nothing of what is now Wales or Scotland. These countries were effectively sealed to them by conveniently placed mountain ranges which made it impossible for Roman military tactics to succeed against what were in reality little more than loosely organised guerrilla fighter groups carrying out SAS-style harassment raids!

Considering all the technological, organisational and military advantages which the Romans had at the time, the only thing which has ever surprised me is - why didn't the Roman influence last a lot longer than it did? Considering the undoubted benefits they brought to Britain, I've always thought that their influence ought to have been greater, the Lex Romana more permanent.

On the other hand you can argue (and I will argue, so there!) that the namby-pamby Southerners were a pushover for the Romans - us "Real Men" in the North have always said this. The 'Hard Men' Celts (Irish, Welsh or Scot) of the North were a different story altogether, and were the probable main cause of Rome deciding to "cut their losses" and slink back with tails between their legs to an Italy which was falling apart from decadence - and which seems to have continued to do so ever since .......

Here endeth today's detention class.
Now write the following 100 lines as punishment

Cæsar adsum iam forte
Brutus aderat
Sed Brutus "Passus sum"

[ninswe104]

Didn't the romans control wales? I thought it were the saxons that had a problem with the welsh.
But I can be wrong.

[PaulMc]

Definition of a Welshman:
Irishman who has learnt to swim .....
The Romans thought they had some sort of control of what we now call Wales, but the mountain range which separates most of Wales from England made this 'control' very theoretical, at best!!

[ninswe104]

Originally posted by PaulMc
Definition of a Welshman:
Irishman who has learnt to swim .....
The Romans thought they had some sort of control of what we now call Wales, but the mountain range which separates most of Wales from England made this 'control' very theoretical, at best!!

Most I know of the roman´s english invasion is taken from "Asterix and the brits"

[PaulMc]

I loved all the Asterix series!!
The Tintin books were excellent, too - unfortunately, both series lose a hell of a lot in translation from the original French, some of the jokes don't translate at all

[bosse_s]

Ah... Gaston was my favourite, and still is. And Spirou!

[ninswe104]

Originally posted by PaulMc

I loved all the Asterix series!!
The Tintin books were excellent, too - unfortunately, both series lose a hell of a lot in translation from the original French, some of the jokes don't translate at all

I Know what you mean they are retranslating the tintin books here. They want them to be more like the french originals.
One thing with tintin is that you couldn't guess they were written before WWII.

[PaulMc]

ninswe104,
When you say "re-translating" I am tempted once more to mount my soap-box and declaim:
"This is a Department of Education cop-out!" at the top of my voice.

If people were taught effectively with regard to Second (or 'Other subsequent') languages at school there would be no need to "gild the lily" or 'tart up' in any way a good piece of writing, whether prose or poetry (I'm concentrating on fiction. Different rules apply with information, text books, histories, technical literature etc).

Anyone who has ever read a "modern English" rendering of Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" will appreciate how insane it is trying to "translate" without losing the meaning, and the point of most of Chaucer's jokes!

In classical literature, I have cringed my way through several atrocious "supposed translations" of Virgil's 'Aeneid' and some of Cicero's speeches - none of which have even come close to the sheer majesty of the originals. I never had the opportunity to study classical Greek
[ "Regrets, I've had a few ...." ... oops, sorry, misplaced quote .... ] ...
but I'm confident the same would apply. What German I have is self-taught, but I can struggle through a newspaper/magazine article and I've noticed that when German TV do 'voiceovers' of eg. a British sitcom, they most certainly do not translate the one-liners and other jokes in the original script (visions of Basil Fawlty's "Don't mention the War" routine, trying to imagine if this sketch would ever get past the censors on German TV ..... )

I'll let someone else get a word in, but basically my opinion (for what it's worth) is that you'll always get a lot more enjoyment out of reading any well-written piece of fiction in the original language, wherever possible

[kittyd]

i loved the tintin series too. did you know they are planning on making a live action movie? i think they want to get a teenager to play him.

did you guys ever read that book tintin in the new world by frederic tuten? it was written in the early 90s and was quite beautifully done. i highly recommend it.

i always loved captain haddock (sp?) blistering barnacles! my favorite comic was the black island. i love rereading those...

[Nolvinge]

Okay some of you may argue that what I am about to type has no relevance on history whatsoever but I beg to differ because these are events that happened when I was young, and that, my dear sirs and madames, is truly history

My favourite comic books are the Beano and Dandy heh heh. They are not in French but even though I am trained in the Queen's English and speak with a horrible British accent (my American friends call it weird and my Swedish friends think my nose is permanently blocked), some of the dialogues are foreign to me lol

However, I have forayed into Tintin's world but must admit my proletariat taste. I confess to liking Hagar the Horrible better. His wife rocks ! That comic actually uhh...cut the vikings down to size heh heh. I have been known to spend my school allowance on the Asterix comix too. I remember a friend asked me whether I owned any Archie comics and I looked at her perplexed. Now that I am older and know Archie comics to be the one with the perennial boys-chase-girls-chase-boys and clothes and dating and teenage angst, I stroke my Where's Wally collection lovingly.

I know I need to get a life but dangit, the winter sale is not on yet

Here I am, Paul ! Sorry for delay but I've decided to join
this site on Sundays. For the love of Sweden I could do
it every day, but,alas, I can see very little love for
Sweden around. And even less for Norway, Danmark and Finland.

As for your objections, Paul, I agree with all the very amusing folks who talked about asterix and so on. Very
well done. A fair amount of jocous sarcasm is the best
issue. One must be more than a man to write history.
Unless everybody sees nowadays the effects of it
My contribution is that you, Paul hadn't been born yet,
those days when those terrible Roman invaders conquered
the country nowadays called England. The evidence of it
be London ( Londinium ) all the cities ending in chester
( castrum ) the fact that in Bath there are still remains
of that domination. In Exeter they are kept with great
care in a museum. In Chester there is still the ancient
Roman Wall that runs around the city. And what about the
Hadrian Wall. Do you hold all those things were built by
what you called the real men ? In what real ? That after being subjugated by the Romans were dominated by The
Anglo-Saxon ? So that's why it is those real men who speak
English and not the Anglo-Saxon who speak celtic or
gaelik. This is history applied to facts which each of
us can still see nowadays in England and in many other
parts of Europe. It is English the language most spoken.
And in English many words are or have Latin origins.
And it's neither celtic nor gaelic.

So don't come up with your real men. You don't scare
anybody. Remember the potato famine. I don't think that
the Romans or the Anglo-Saxon were scared by that.
We all had our victims. Recently also in Iraqi we had
our victims. But we don't go around playing the role
of victims. And this is why I admire the Anglo-Saxon,
Vikings, The Great Norwegian Partisans who destroyed
the Nazi's plans to get nuclear weapons earlier than
the Anglo-Americans, the Anzacs, the Canadians and so
on. I can't certainly admire the ira which instead
supported Nazis. Are they a good example for you when you talk about real men ? And don't come out with the story we had mussolini. The Italian partisan executed him. We apply justice against our criminals. We don't call them real men
just because they fight England by placing bombs and killing innocent children and women. They, you, are real chickens. To say nothing of the other real men who come
to Italy and always slate England for all the crimes they
committed. Do you really think we are so stupid not to
see they speak English if they want to be understood by
us ? The Anglo-Saxon Language with a great inheritance
of Latin words and cities founded by the Romans.

To end with, the real really men don't need to claim
they are real men. They just show what they are.
And in your victim culture it's not the case.
So, bugger off real paulmc jerk.

[Edited by wally-the-walrus on 16th November 2003 at 13:24]

[PaulMc]

Wally, I thought from the start of your post you'd understood and accepted the facetious and mildly sarcastic manner in which I'd written my piece - just referring to John Cleese at the very beginning should have been enough to alert anyone reading the posting to be prepared to exercise some "willing suspension of disbelief" (students of Shakespeare or S.T. Coleridge will recognise this phrase!).
The latter part of your post leads me to think that this may not in fact be the case.
Therefore , yea verily, I say unto thee ...

"If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!!"

[tandir]

Let's talk about comix again.

What about the amazing art in the Judge Dread stories?

[PaulMc]

Tandir
Must admit I could never decide which I liked best: the 'cartoony' drawings of Asterix, Tintin et al.
or the more 'realistic' figures used in classic DC comics (Batman, Superman, Hornet, Green Lantern c. 1960+/-)
Anyone care to comment?
(forget the Romans, their 2-dimensional drawings never seemed very inspired to my simple tastes!)

[tandir]

I had a boyfriend who was obsessed with Comix. He used to collect them and some were worth quite a lot of money! Can't say I am really into that kind of collection but just find it interesting....

lol. He also used to get stoned and stare at them blankly for hours...... Strange but true.