The real face of "Sverigedemokraterna"?

[bosse_s]

A couple of times before, some members of this board have tried to explain why the political party "Sweden Democrates" should be understood as a serious party that is not rasist but rather "patriotic" and traditional and a serious democratic choice for the voters in Sweden.

From Expressen (daíly newspaper in Sweden) 29th of November that took a closer look at their arguments:

1. "Immigrants are too dependent on government subsidies."
The leader of the party is worried that it is to easy to get subsidy. "In the old farmer society it was not possible to be lazy", he says. People should work and to their part in society".
-Expressen looked at the 99 candidates from the party at the last governmental, regional and local elections. 7 out of the 99 candidates claim that they had no annual income. 33 person claim that they had an income below 100 000 SEK a year (this is less than a normal "student income"). Only 28 persons had an income above 200 000 (which would probably be the median income in Sweden). The vice president of the party had an annual income of 45 000 SEK (about 4500$!). Either those guys are criminals, or they are getting quite a few subsidies themselves. Expressen also shows that many of the members of the party live on social wellfare.

2. "Tradional family values are dissapaering". The party claim that it is important to "protect the (Swedish) family".
-Only 21 of the 99 candidates are married today. But 58 of them have kids. One candidate in the 1998 election had been married for times by the way. To Carlos, Ahmed, Fahd and Muhammed.

3. Sverigedemokraterna are not a rasist party, but they are against "massimmigrations" and think that all non-european immigration to Sweden should be stopped. They claim that the multi-cultural society is a threat to Swedish culture. They are searching for a "warmer and more open society", the president of the party claims.
-Expressen shows quote that indicates quite rasist thoughts, like "Drugs, violence and AIDS. Do you feel good in the multicultural society?"


4. "Criminals should be taken away from the street" The party say that the Swedish justice system cant stop criminal immigrant youth-gangs that robs and rapes swedish kids. For instance.
-Expressen shows (from a study made by Expo) that 23 percent of the party members are convicted for crimes! (Ammong immigrants as a population, the same figure is about 12%). In a Stockholmian suburb, 43 percent of the candidates were criminals. Some of their merits: Theft, violence towards women, fraud, violent crimes.... etc.

I can't figure out the moral standards of this party. Is it Expressen that are spreading lies or is it the Sverigedemokraterna who are deliberately spreading a false picture of themselves and their politics to try to get into the goverment? It would be interesting to hear what people on this board think about this "serious" and "patriotic" party.


The article was written in Swedish, so all the quotes are translated by me.

[Edited by bosse_s on 1st December 2001 at 16:17]

[Al-Martinez]

I've been in Sweden a couple of months only and I don't know much about this party. However It seems they're schooled in the same way all far right parties are in Europe and North America.

Nazi Geramny mind bending techniques are extremely effective if used with touch and skill. That is I'll provide a set of ideas and values that you can't possibly say no to or disagreee with, and I'm going to associate them with my movement.

For example in the old days:
Do you love germany? then you are witht us (nazis) and they leave out all debate about loving germany but not the nazis.

Are you a memeber of a "superior" race? of ocurse, nobody wants to be associated with inferiority. Even though that joining a party has nothing to do with you being all of a sudden superior.

In the new days:
Tories in London: Do you want immigrants doing crime in the streets? of course not who would want that. On nthe other hand they come up with the false assumption that the Tories were to eliminate this situation, and the Labour party wouldn't when evidence pointed the other way.

Now seems like the swedish democrats have the same concept down (Would you like immigrant gangs to rape your kids?). The thing is that they are not skillful enough to make it credible. If you look at the examples you gave us, it's absurd what they claim because they do not have the moral backup to make those claims (they are dependant on subsidies, they have criminal records......) But all you need is the right image of a leader with enough moral examples to present over and over again and the right marketing or propaganda designer that can come up with those statements that do strike a nerve with the voters. The world is that fragile.

Modern right wingers are usually the dumbest, poorest, less stable of their societies. All humans need to be proud about something, whatever. It's a basic need. It's very appealing to these people to associate themselves with these groups that give them a sense of pride (and of fear when it comes to neo nazis, they love the feeling of power when they 20 of them attack other isolated kids) here's when those false values ring loud:

Do you love Sweden?, Do you want to "save it"?, Are you proud of your heritage?
Are you a patriot?, Do oyu want people to think of yourself as a mean, lean destructive unit? bla bla blsa....

These mind bending techniques have been put to work with great skill and efectiveness by marketing campaign designers. They associate their product or their services with ideas that you cannot say no to, ands that are faLSE. But they are so good at it that they rule out a debate indicating the opposite.

Some common associations

Hapiness with an investmend fund and a Porsche
Success with Valentino outfits
Winning and athletic prowess with Nike apparel

Some absurd ones:
Do you love your family? (Sure) then you buy this or that detergent.....

So these techniques work and work vey well. It's a matter of craftiness. Unfortunately the world is full of dumb, trend followers, thtere's more of those than thtinking individuals.

Few getting tired now, so that's my take.

Peace

Al

[thule]

Neither you or Expressen are the first to have noticed this about Sverigedemokraterna. Hence the the forming of the new party Nationaldemokraterna with several former SD members.
Personally I think ND has more to offer Sweden than SD and they handled themselves extremely well earliers this week in a debate against the fascist organization Expo on the TV program Folkhemmet.


/Alex

[bosse_s]

So what is the difference between Nationaldemokraterna and Sveridemokraterna? Is a total new organization, or just a new name and brand for the same thing as before?

As a voter, I do not get the difference from watching the rather boring homepage with its "poor us"-mentality and neat nationalistic and facsistic links.

[thule]

I don't think there really are any major differences in the party programs. I'm not certain of this, but I have heard that several of the old SD members who later formed ND felt that SD's bark had become worse than it's bite. All talk and no action.

I'm not so sure there is a "poor us" mentality. But even if there is, it's a good counter-weight to the established media's "poor immigrants and evil swedes" mentality.
/Alex

[Edited by thule on 3rd December 2001 at 23:09]

[Al-Martinez]

The fact that they handled themselves well in a TV debate does not say anythting about the credibility of anybody´s party, nor does it give substance to anybody's cause.
Especially when judged by such low standards.

which is what happens time and time again in US Politics, he who lies better or comes up with a neat image in the presidential debate wins it at the end, regardless of the content of the plan.

Now, could you expand on more bite less bark, what are they proposing?

One thing that nobody seems to get in the western world is that immigration is not something you can agree or disagree with. Stringent immigration laws don't mean that people will not cross the border or find a way to get to shore. As it is evident in the US, in Spain, In the UK....everywhere

When missery looms people flee, that's the ecuation. If countries want to stop mass migration they have to get rid of misserable conditions in third world countries. And since we're so keen in keeping missery around. Migration from third to first world countries should be seen as a natural by-product of humanity's day to day operation.
Being in disagreement with immigration and it's consequences is like being in disagreement with earthquakes and it's consequences.

to all these parties that are offering the solution to mass-migration by stopping it or containing it, they are living in dream land. Something that makes sense is for the Government to forecast and prepare to accomodate the newcommers, because they will come. Solutions should be targeted towards this goal, because half starved prosecuted people will not just sit and wait to die.

Peace

Al

[Merecir]

they handled themselves extremely well earliers this week in a debate against the fascist organization Expo on the TV program Folkhemmet.

Ok....
The only problems is that they f u c k e d upp and made themselves look even more stupid then they are and that Expo is an anti-nazi/racist organisation who all major parties youth organizations is members of.

That you call them facists just shows that you are a damn nazi urself!

[thule]

Ok....
The only problems is that they f u c k e d upp and made themselves look even more stupid then they are and that Expo is an anti-nazi/racist organisation who all major parties youth organizations is members of.

That you call them facists just shows that you are a damn nazi urself!

Thank you for that display of total lack of intelligence and knowledge, Merecir. It's quite obvious how little you know about Expo.
First of all Expo has become a sacred cow to the establishment - one you never question or criticize. So Expo are free to come up with any lies they want and to slander any group or person they want without ever being subject to any criticial review by the government or the media. And the fact that they have had criminals in their ranks - something they condemn other groups for having - just shows what a bunch of hippocrits they are.

And it was Expo and not ND that made fools of themselves. Like their ridicioulus attempt to connect today's national parties such as "Dansk folkeparti" with Adolf Hitler himself.

The fact that you call me a nazi just shows how little you know. Do you even know what a nazi is? Is a nazi to you a drunken skinhead shouting "sieg heil?" Read a book!

You tell me Merecir. What is most dangerous to democracy; A nationalistic political party using democratic means to achieve it's goals. Or an interest group that can make up lies and slander people with views that differs from theirs with the government's blessing and that you can become blacklisted as a nazi, racist and who the hell knows what else for criticizing?

Al-Martinez:

I don't think they differ to much from SD politically. On their website it says that they think that SD is a party with a soiled background. And latley they haven't bothered to get in touch with the large number of people that have contacted or showed an interest in the party.


[Edited by thule on 3rd December 2001 at 16:39]

[Merecir]

Thats typical nazi BS thule. Go home to ur mummy so she can spank some sense into you.

Could it be so that they have criminals as members because some of them are former neo-nazis who served time because of racist crimes??? -> YES!

Expo is supported by all major parties. Parties who have got there by democracy (you should read a book and learn what that is). If people don't like what they do they can vote on something else...

They did not try to connect hitler directly to dansk folkeparti, but i guess you aswell as the morons in the studio didn't get that.

A nazi is someone who believes in Nazism, a bastardized verson of National Socialism. The Nazi often disslike jews and non-whites for no sane reason. A drunken skinhead shouting "sieg heil" is a confused youngster with low self esteem...

Which are you?

[thule]

Could it be so that they have criminals as members because some of them are former neo-nazis who served time because of racist crimes??? -> YES!

Little boy, would you like some examples of what I was talking about?

Tobias Hübinette: AFA leader and the first editor of Expo. Convicted for sabotage, agitation, slander, molestation and destruction(skadegörelse).

Anders Carlqvist:Uses the pseudonym Peter Karlsson. Co-worker at Expo. Former AFA leader and convicted for assault when he beat up somebody who didn't agree with him, also convicted for violence against an official (våld mot tjänsteman).

Would you like more? There's plenty where that came from.

Expo is supported by all major parties. Parties who have got there by democracy (you should read a book and learn what that is). If people don't like what they do they can vote on something else...

Considering how protected Expo is by the government, do you really think most voters really know what a bunch of anti-democratic bastards they are? The voters also voted for a party in which Björn Fries is a member. A man who doesn't have much respect for either freedom of speach or UN article nr 19:

Article 19 of the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

A nazi is someone who believes in Nazism, a bastardized verson of National Socialism. The Nazi often disslike jews and non-whites for no sane reason. A drunken skinhead shouting "sieg heil" is a confused youngster with low self esteem...

Exactly where did I give the indication that I dislike jews or non-whites??? Did you dream it up???

Which are you?

I'm just an average Joe. But to you i'm probably Hitler reborn. To you and the paranoid Expo who sees brownshirts wherever they look.

Don't you see that you have already proven my point about Expo for me???? Just because i'm a nationalist and critical of Expo, i'm all of a sudden a nazi. Those are the very tactics that Expo uses. And with the establishment to carry their twisted messages they can make a real impact even though they - like you - are a bunch of f*cking liars!

/Alex


[Edited by thule on 3rd December 2001 at 18:33]

[seadog23]

"In the old farmer society it was not possible to be lazy", he says. People should work and to their part in society".

WHY SHOULD THEY?

[bosse_s]

Beats me! But judging from the work status of their own candidates, the rule only applies to immigrants. The rest of us can practice slackness freely.

[Al-Martinez]

Anyway regarding freedom of expresion.-

There is a very fine line between freedom to say what you want and freedom to have information orgies like you have in the USA.

Rappers can sing about gang raping and violence and shield themselves on the first amendement and all of a sudden seem "nationalistic" and observants of the constitution, Bull S.
Nazis can publish books about ethnic cleansing and hold their rallies and tag themselves with constitution abiding freedom fighters...even more Bull S.

So what is a nazi Tule?

You stopped there....Which books should we read? Nietzche, Shopenhauer.....

Give me a break!!!! The backcone of nazi philosophy is on these two authors that because of the times they lived in a couple of attacks on other groups managed to get to print.

but in essence Nieztche's and Shopenhauer's ideas on nationalism are so far fetched from those of the nazis

(You are german, italian, zambian...by natural coincidence not by divine intervention, and it is Shopenhauer that said that idiots that have nothing to show for themselves of nothing to be proud about rely on nationalistic sentiments to feel good about their sorry selves, this was widely seconded by Nietzche) Ring a bell?

And the concept of the überman is exactly the opposite to what the nazis portrayed it as. One superior being that holds ideas true to himself and that DOES NOT MERELY FOLLOW THE HERD, and uses the intellect to achieve balance and PEACE with other beings..... I do not have time to come up with exact quotes but if you've read them, you know what I'm talking about.

***

You have not contradicted any of the statements about old-time and modern time nazis adopting attributes that are FALSE. Their tactics on brainwashing are impossible to contradict because they are so true, it's the most dangerous thing to nazi movements.

Since the Wayans brothers in the US through comedy have actually laughed in their faces (KKK) time after time after time, and have stained that image of mean, lean destructive machine that so many kids find sexy, the number of newcommers has decreased dramatically. They cannot recruit new kids on the basis of "Do you want to instill fear in people" and now a large portion of white americans regards them as clowns dressed in sheets.


Which part of the brainwashing technique appealed to you?

was it the good old "military prowess of the wehrmacht"

the infallible "do you want to be associated with beautiful, intellectual, tough, tall...then join the nazis, and your cheeks will automatically be rosier, you'll be a good 10cm taller, your friends will look at you with respect and your eyes will be greener than ever before"...?

Nazism is looney, it's marketing it's no different that an Elizabeth Arden campaign...And it WILL NOT MAKE A BETTER WORLD.

Peace

Al

[thule]

I'm not sure i'm following you Al-martinez. Are yoy trying to imply that i've been brainwashed into being a nationalist? Or do you simply want my definition of what I think a nazi is?


/Alex

[Al-Martinez]

You have said before that you're not a nazi, so I'm implying that far right wingers have been brainwashed, thus you have to determine if it applies to you.

Now, no offense but I'm not interested in anybody's definition of a nazi. Talking about this kind of matter really exhaust me, nationalisms, mild or not are a waste of time.

If you were to wipe out all of humanity and leave Uppsala standing, the Svenssons will still fight the Johanssons.

It's tribal warfare taken to a "modern" order. If nationalists ever proved some validity to their claims, I'll become one I'm all for truth. The thing is that by nature nationalisms are exclusive (Meaning warfare with those that do not suscribe to your clan) this idea of mild nationalisms is unreal because it will degenerate in extremism. And you can leave race out of this one.

Human kind is beyond salvation, I find redemption in not giving up and debating and being an activist and stuff, but deep in the end, I agree with those Philosophers (Berlin) that say thet the debate is not wehter Humans can be saved or not but wether it's worth to save them..

Anyway I'm going to the Sports thread, enough of this.

Peace

Al