I am very surprised: "Boycott Sweden and it's candidacy for the 2004 Olympic games"

[belgian]

Boycott Sweden and it's candidacy for the 2004 Olympic games..
Native population of Sweden urge IOC to consider other candidates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why arn't Sweden a worthy host for the Olympics?

Protests was held outside the agricultural departement in Stockholm, August 21.
Translation of the texts on the posters:

"Our reindeers needs to graze in peace".
"Is Sweden an worthy host for the Olympic games?"
"Swedens Agenda 21 must also include us as well!"

Sweden is a country who wishes to host the 2004 Olympic games.
This country are simultaneously not following international agreements for human rights and the indigenous peoples rights such as The Rio declaration.
Representatives for the indigenous population in Sweden, the Sami's ("Lapps") doesn't consider this country is a worthy candidate.

-The Olympic games will result in a lot of goodwill for the country which eventually will be chosen as the host. There's also no doubt that there's a connection between international and domestic politics and the world of sports.
The organisers of several sportevents have shown their dissatisfaction with dictatorships and policies of disparity such as South-africa with their former apartheid.
The relationship between Sweden and its indigenous population could hardly be said to be in accord with the legislation in other countries and would rather be a question of shame for Sweden as a nation,
according to Olof Johansson, chairman of Glen Sami community and MP of the native Sami parliament in Sweden.


If we for a moment view Sweden from an indigenous perspective, we cannot even tell if Sweden is a democracy or not. We Sami's have no control of the land from which we derive our livelihood.
We are in the hands of capricious politicians and administrators, both locally and on the government level, states Lars-Anders Baer, chairman
of SSR (National society of Swedish Sami's ).

One obvious example is the free fishing and small game hunt bill -on Sami territories- which was introduced in 1992, after preparatory work by the former rightwing government.
The agricultural department thereafter made a set of bills to regulate the hunt, the preparatory work for those bills had in turn been made by a single Swedish consultant.

The local administrative boards for the three most northern regions in Sweden was appointed to administrate this hunting and fishing on Sami territories which by a penstroke changed the legislative status of
the Sami's land into the governments possession.
An obvious violation of both the civic rights as well as international treaties.

-We Sami's are never part of the decision making process, not even when the issue is of utter importance for the Sami nation, adds Ingvar Åhrén chairman of the Sami parliament in Sweden. And it is allowed to continue even after this government has signed the Rio Declaration as well as Agenda 21. Both of which states that the government should act
to encourage the indigenous population to participate in politics, creation of new laws and program for recourcemanagement and other processes which may affect them.

-Added together we Sami's feel extremely hesitant to recommend Sweden as a host for any Olympic game states Mr Olof Johansson and adds: We ask the IOC to consider our predictament when it is time to vote for this candidature.

Place: Drottninggatan 21 outside dpt of Agriculture (Jordbruksdepartementet) Time: Thursday August 21, 9.30 am - 3 pm.

[Merecir]

The Samis have a parlament that have influence.

If they just could stop b!tching with eachother and start making some real desisions it might prove to give results...

If they can decide who actually is a Sami, so they can have elections for the Sami parlament...

And.
The indigenous people of Sweden is the Swedes.
The Sami area is just the northern tip and south along the mountains.

Sweden treats it's ""native population"" helluvalot better then Australia! Not to mention China or the US!

[belgian]

Samis, autochtones or not of Sweden? This seems to be the most important question:

Detail from Moses Pitt's
"The English Atlas" ca: 1680.
Long before the Swedish, Finnish or even the Viking culture had developed, the Scandinavian peninsula was populated by the Saemieh (hereafter referred to as Sami). The oldest written source of knowledge on the Sami's is the Roman historian Tacitus' who describes fenni in a book from 98 A.D, although his account most certainly was based on hearsay only.
In 555 A.D. the Greek historian, Procopius, refers to Scandinavia as Thule, and the inhabitants he calls skridfinns1. At this time the most southern part of Sweden was populated by the Vendel people a peaceful group of sunworshippers. Since they lived in a time before recorded history for this part of the world, little is known today about the Vendel's. Later the immigration by and mixing with germanic tribes gave birth to the wellknown Viking culture in Sweden and Norway.
During the Viking Age -and later- in the Middle Ages, Sweden was only about a third of it's present size, the northern 2/3 of the country was populated by the Sami. Even though the Sami tales about the Stalo suggests that there was a long-lasting conflict with the Vikings. The Sami's also traded first with Vikings and later with travelers from northern Europe such as tradesmen from the Hanseatic league.
As a result of these contacts the Sami society took a cultural leap from a predominately stone age society and even developed a monetary system of their own -a little known fact- the currency was named tjoervie btw. Animal hides and furs were the most common commoditys that was traded for salt, coins (often used as ornaments) and different kind of metal blades. The handicrafted Sami knifes developed its present form during this age.


How are they treated in Sweden? Let's look what the UN has to say. Somehow confusing...

GENERAL
UNITED NATIONS
International Convention on the Elimination of all the forms of Racial Discrimination
CERD/C/304/Add.103
1 May 2001

Original: ENGLISH

Concluding observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination : Sweden. 01/05/2001. CERD/C/304/Add.103. (Concluding Observations/Comments)

10. The Committee is concerned that a recent upsurge in racism and xenophobia has been seen which has given rise to increased neo-Nazi violence, especially among youth. In this context, the Committee notes with concern, the increasing popularity of "white power" music which promotes hatred against ethnic minorities. The Committee encourages the State party to continue its efforts to arrest the upsurge in racism and xenophobia, prevent and punish racist neo-Nazi violence and prosecute any persons whose actions incite to racial hatred.

11. While the Committee notes that the State party has adopted some measures to promote greater awareness about the Roma minority and to encourage greater participation of Roma in the society, it is concerned about the difficulties which Roma continue to experience in exercising their rights. The Committee recommends that the State party submit in its next periodic report additional information on the situation of the Roma minority, particularly as regards education, employment and housing. The State party is requested to pay particular attention to the situation of Roma women and children.

12. While the Committee notes the new legislation which gives individuals the right to use the Sami language in legal and administrative proceedings, it stresses that this right is recognized only in respect of some geographic regions. It is recommended that the State party consider the extension of these rights to all Sami territory.

13. Concern is expressed over the issue of land rights of the Sami people, in particular hunting and fishing rights which are threatened by, inter alia, the privatization of traditional Sami lands. The Committee recommends that the Government introduce legislation recognizing traditional Sami land rights and reflecting the centrality of reindeer husbandry to the way of life of Sweden's indigenous people. The Committee further recommends that the State party ratify ILO Convention No. 169 concerning Indigenous and Tribal Peoples in Independent Countries.

14. The Committee expresses concern about increasing de facto residential segregation. The Committee recommends that the State party ensure compliance with the law against discrimination in the allocation of housing and in its next periodic report supply information on the measures taken to address such segregation

[bosse_s]

All the sources I know, tell the sami as the indigenous people of Sweden. If they belong to the same group as the Finnish-Ugrian people, then it makes sense that they have moved over the whole country. The Hungarians where nomadic people, probably originally from the Kaukasus and further into Asia. My theory is that the inland ice forced divided the people into groups - one moving up north, and another (still) remaining in central Europe.

But what the heck, indigenous or not. The Sami have lived here long enough in our and our neighbouring countries. Let them have their land and their rights.

The Sami have definitely not been treated better than the indians at certain times. But mostly, I would say that they have been left alone. Belgian, one of your comments regarded Romani, not the Sami. Sad enough, but the two are not the same.



[Edited by bosse_s on 13th February 2002 at 20:41]

[Merecir]

Ok, is this better?
The indigenous people of todays Sweden is: Swedes, Scanians, Norwegians, Danes, Gutes, Finns and Samis...

-

"During the Viking Age -and later- in the Middle Ages, Sweden was only about a third of it's present size"

In the 12'th century the Swedes 'conquered' (crusade/colonization) Finland, and in 1332 the treaty at Nöteborg set the Eastern Swedish border with Novgorod.

-

Something about the Vendels and the Svea (Swedes):
It is believed by some that when 'Odinism' came to the Vendels, some in the north (stockholm area) stubornly kept their old sun religion, they where called the Svea, while the ones that early adopted 'Odinism' took the name Göt. Later even the Svea adopted 'Odinism', and this is where the Svealand and Götaland areas come from... (a mystery in Swedish history).

-

The nazis and racists does not include the Samis in any 'non-wanted' groups.

"it stresses that this right is recognized only in respect of some geographic regions. It is recommended that the State party consider the extension of these rights to all Sami territory."

The "geographic regions" is all Sami territory today in Sweden.
Most Sami territory is in Norway, Finland and Russia.

How many Samis do actually do 'reindeer husbandry' nowdays?
I doubt there is more then twenty that does.

[belgian]

Hello friends, thanks for the replies. Please, no misunderstanding. My goal is not to blame anyone but to draw your attention on sufferings of a people who used to live in Scandinavia for almost 2000 years. We should all work to create the Europe of citizens where everyone will enjoy freedom to prosper regardless of gender religion or ethnic origin. We are all instinctively afraid of differences but differences make the richness of our culture. We should all learn to live with people different of us. Minorities are prosecuted everywhere, in France, Spain, Israel, Turkey, Australia or in USA. French speaking wallons(The people who came in Sweden in the beginning of the century to provide know-how to the newborn steel industry in Sweden) had a similar attitude against poorer Dutch speaking community of Belgium ignoring their language. Now they became the minority in Belgium and French is only the second official language here. Sweden is no exception; you are human beings as the rest of us.
Boss_es as usual you give wise and courageous propositions:
"The Sami have lived here long enough in our and our neighbouring countries. Let them have their land and their rights."
My question is how can they get their rights?
I don't have enough information about them so I can't say who is right or wrong but it seems they are afraid of Swedes. Here is an open letter I found on the net

To: Deputy Prime Minister Lena Hjelm-Wallén,
Swedish delegation
CC: Saami Organisations,
participating and associated organisations,
NGO’s,
Swedish and international press

The Stockholm International Forum
"COMBATING INTOLERANCE"
29-30 januari 2001, Stockholm, Sweden

OPEN LETTER
RACISM AGAINST SAAMI IN SWEDEN

Last year's widely noted international conference on the Holocaust is being followed up this year with a conference even more tangibly concerned with everyday strategies for combating and preventing ultra-nationalism, hate crime and intolerance against homosexuals and ethnic minorities
Politicians, researchers and experts from several countries will gather for a couple of days in common search of ways of combating and preventing racist and anti-democratic ideas. The Swedish Government is hosting this conference. However, they did not invited Swedish Saami organisations to actively take part in the conference. Neither is the Swedish Government going to address the ongoing racism against the Saami, who are the indigenous people of Scandinavia

"PROTECT THE WOLF - SHOOT THE SAAMI!"

In 1999, a person in Stockholm was reported to the police for driving around with a sticker on his car: “Protect the wolf * shoot the Saami!”
This sticker is widely spread in Sweden (several thousand copies), especially in Nothern Sweden where the Saami live. However, the prosecutor rejected the case. According to the Swedish freedom of the press act, the case was prescribed. This means that the label is still in use. People in Sweden can call for genocide against the Saami without any risk for legal action
RACISM AND HARASSMENT AGAINST THE SAAMI IN SWEDEN
Should the Saami be forced to deny their ethnic identity? Racist threats against the Saami are more and more common in the Swedish society. It is not possible for Saami in Kiruna to have a sticker with the Saami flag on their car. Saami are not using their traditional costume when going to town. They fear to be beaten up. Road signs in Saami language are being destroyed as soon as they are set up. These Saami road signs are used as targets. It is like it has become acceptable to attack the Saami

75% OF THE SAAMI IN SWEDEN EXPERIENCE HOSTILITY

75% of the Saami state that they experience hostility from the Swedish society according to a 1998 survey carried out by the Swedish ombudsman against discrimination (DO; “Ethnic discrimination against Saami”). Around 50% say that the hostility has increased in Northern Sweden (in Sápmi, the Saami country). 30% of the Saami have been directly exposed to degrading terms of abuse and 20% have been harassed at the workplace. 60% say that antagonisms between the Saami and the Non-Saami populations have increased during the last 5 years. However, no-one of the consultated Saami did notify the harrassment to the police
In 2000, the Swedish Government ratified the European Framework Convention on the Protection of Minorities and the European Charter on Minority Languages. Saami, Finnish, Tornedal, Roma and Jewish people are recognized as national minorities in Sweden.
Through the ratification of the conventions, Sweden is obliged to support and protect the five minority languages: Saami, Finnish, Meänkieli, Romani Chib and Jewish. Sweden is responsible for preventing the Saami from racist attacks and harrassment
It is very sad that the Swedish Goverment does not want to address obvious racism against the Saami at this important conference.
We really hope that the issue of racism against the Saami people in Sweden will be discussed
We also hope that Saami people are invited to the conference to talk about their situation in Sweden

With kind regards, on behalf of

STOCKHOLM SAAMI ASSOCIATION
Sabbatsbergsv. 20
S-11336 Stockholm, Sweden


In fact there was no personal comment in my previous message. I copied the recommendations of UN and I didn’t want to cut the middle of it concerning Roma people or gypsies as the rest of Europe usually call them. Their fate seems to be similar to Samis. Let’s see what a Swedish site tells about the history of them.

"The ancestors of the Roma people emmigrated from northwestern India (todays Pakistan) during a period between 700-1300, chiefly in two larger waves in the end of the 8´th and 12´th century. Their ancestors were the indo-europeans, who around 1500-1000 b.c. came to northwestern India, where they subjugated the Dravida people who lived there earlier. With the arrival of the indo-european arians, Hinduism and the cast system was developed and the Veda writings were made.
There are different theories concerning the reason of the emmigration; that they were parias, that they were wandering craftsmen or because of the arrival of Islam to India e.g.
The old theory says that since they are parias in Europe, it is very possible that they were the same in India and since they were unwanted, they were driven away. If that would be the case, hundreds of thousands of outcasts would have had the strenghth to emmigrate to search for better conditions. When the Roma people first came to Europe, they were popular guests at the courts, but it wasn´t popular when they wanted to stay in Europe for good, then they became parias. Since the Europeans didn´t know what kind of people the Roma people were, they guessed that they were Mongolian Tatars, Ismaelites, Ethiopians or Egyptians. The lack of knowledge led to speculations, misunderstandings and distortions which were passed down from generation to generation and some of these are still today widespread. .
It is possibe that it was the Roma people who introduced firearms in Europe, bringing them with them from Asia. 1496 a group of Roma people made bullets for rifles and other ammunition in Hungaria. 1565 the Turks employed Roma people to make cannonballs of iron and stone and in Romania they made rifles, lanses, swords and other weapons. In Sweden , as in the rest of Europe, it was common that Roma people were hired as soldiers in the armies. Here they were called "tatarer", later "tattare", a term borrowed from Germany where they mistook the Roma people for the Mongolian Tartars. Until the turn of the 19´th and 20´th century, no difference was made between "tattare" and "zigenare" (Swedish for gypsies), but then eastern european Roma people came to Sweden and "zigenare" was then the recently immigrated Roma people, while "tattare" denoted the ones who earlier had been called both "tattare" and "zigenare".
The first information about Roma people in Sweden is from 1512, when the "tatra" came to Stockholm. The event was recorded in the "thinking book" of the city of Stockholm and by Olaus Petri in his swedish chronicle. The party consisted of men, women and children and their chief was called Count Antonius with his Countess. They stayed at S:t Laurenti inn and stayed for thirty days. After that they stayed with Lasse Matsson.
In the "thinking book" it wrote: "Die Sancti Michaelis archangli komme the tatra hith i byn, hulke som sades wara aff Klene Egiffti land..." (On the day of the archangel Sanct Michaeli came the tatra here to the city, who was said to be of the Little Egiffti (Little Egypt) land..."). (It is said that Roma people had lived at the foot of a mountain called "Little Egypt" in Greece.) And in his "En Swensk Cröneka", Olaus Petri wrote: "Samma åår her Steen (Sten Sture d.y.) war höffuitsman worden kom en part off thet folket som fara omkring ifrå thet ena landet til thet andra, them man kallar Tatare, hijt i landet och til Stockholm, förra handhe the aldrigh her warit." (The same year Mr. Steen (Sten Sture the younger) became leader of the country came a party of that people who travels from one country to the other, those one call Tatare, here to the country and to Stockholm, before they had never been here.)
Sweden did the same as other countries - made legislations which made it possible to drive them away or kill them. 1525 the bishop in Strängnäs got orders from the king Gustav Vasa to make sure that all Roma people were driven away and 1560 the bishop Laurentius Petri forbid the priests for having anything to do with Roma people; not christen their children or bury their dead. At the priest meeting in Linköping the ban was extended to also apply for medical care.
1637 a general "zigenarförordning" (gypsy statute) was issued: all males of the Roma people found after the 8th of November that year should be hanged and women and children should be driven out of the country. The Roma people were outlaws. 1675 a new statute was issued, saying that they should be taken out to army service, which gave them the right to be registered in Swedish cities. During the 18´th century it was very common with Roma people in the Swedish army and it was very rar that a 20-25 year old man was not or had not been a soldier. The ones who became veterans in the army service got civil rights they couldn´t get any other way. .
Sweden sent their Roma people to Finland, and 1809 Finland becam russian. Until 1883 there were still a law from the Swedish time, saying that Finnish authorities had the right to take male Roma people to a work institution on Sveaborg for indefinite time. The women were taken to Åbo.
1914 the Swedish Parliament accepted a new "foreigner law" and in it the Roma people were mentioned among those who were not desirable in the country. Not until 1954 the immigration prohibition from 1914 for Roma people ceased. 1921 it was decided in the second chamber that the parliament should request a quick investigation for the most appropriate way to free the society from "Gypsies and other Tattare". During the 1930´s the authorities attitude was changed and they started suggesting actions to take which could help them. The Roma people themselves started acting for their own case; Johan Demitri Taikon wrote to the kings saying that the schooling for the Roma children should be arranged. No actions were taken, but "the gypsy investigation" 1954 was a turningpoint, even though the results weren´t the expected. The goal for the authorities was to solve the problems through assimilating the Roma people to the society.
The peripathetic Roma people have all since their arrival to Sweden made their own living without straning "fattigvården" (the poor care). They had to make their own niches in order to stay alive. The products and services they offered were such that the settled population didn´t produce themselves; like working with crafts as coppersmiths and tinsmiths, scrapdealing, horsedealing, "animal doctors" and entertainments such as music, dance, tivolies and fortune-telling. In worst cases they had to beg. The urbanisation made that their products and services in most cases were superfluous and weren´t requested anymore.

If we want to go far in the history of humankind, my message will be too long to read, in fact it already is. I want only send some information on the origin of Hungarians. Here is a paper from Texas University:


The following documents contain a mixture of different and sometimes opposing views on the origin and early history of Hungarians. Some of these ideas are still greatly debated and more controversial than others. In fact, there is no general agreement among scientists as to when and where Hungarians originated and what their early history was. This controversy is very well reflected in the historical reconstructions, especially in the contrasting papers by András Róna-Tas, Gyula László and Fred Hámori. Clearly, the beginnings of Hungarians fades into the distant and unknown past, into which no one has been able to take even a brief glimpse.
Historically, there has been two major competing views in the scientific community on the origin of Hungarians. The widely publicized Finno-Ugric origin (see the history of migration) is internationally more accepted, although it is based, in large part, on linguistic data. There is, however, an increasing body of evidence that Hungarians are related to Turkic (Central Asian) people. Both theories are supported by either some anthropological, or cultural, or linguistic evidence, but as of today, neither of them can be fully rejected or accepted. There are still many, open and unanswered questions concerning these theories, so the documents below present possible hypotheses rather than established facts. Yet perhaps it is the mystery surrounding the distant past of Hungarians that makes our early history so fascinating.
What is clear is the fact that Mongoloid genetic markers are present in Hungarians in approximately 5%. Quoting professor Bartucz:" The mongoloid elements detected in Hungarians are not homogenous, and fall into several distinct groups that are not the different mixing forms of the same Mongoloid elements, but are original racial types within the Mongoloid race." (L. Bartucz: The Hungarian Man. in: Hungarian Land, Hungarian Race. 19??. p. 428.)
The genetic composition of Hungarians shows some similarities with that of the Japanese, so a distant relationship is undeniable. The great differences should be emphasized, however, since the Mongoloid genes are present at a much higher frequency in Mongoloids and Japanese. Is a common origin possible? There are no data available on whether or not Hungarians lived in the vicinity of Japanese. Nevertheless, the contact between Hungarians and Mongoloids are preserved in the genes, although it is not known yet when and where this contact took place.
(Excerpts from the lecture of Professor Hideo Matsumoto on the Third Great Scythian World Congress held in Cleveland, Ohio, in May 1990.)

[belgian]

Now that we uncovered the greatest taboo of Sweden on human rights let me share what I know about the history of Sweden and Hungaria(the country of the Huns?)
"Something about the Vendels and the Svea (Swedes):
It is believed by some that when 'Odinism' came to the Vendels, some in the north (stockholm area) stubornly kept their old sun religion, they where called the Svea, while the ones that early adopted 'Odinism' took the name Göt. Later even the Svea adopted 'Odinism', and this is where the Svealand and Götaland areas come from... (a mystery in Swedish history)"
The explication of the mystery you are talking about Svear may be as follows. These are not my comments I simply found this document in the net:
"The origin of Svear is a total re-evaluation of the earlier history of the Baltic area.
There are certain locks in the Swedish history-writing which have blockaded the view for a wider perspective. I here think of Roman sources about the Baltic area.
In the 17th century when Sweden was a super-power it was important to give the country a history worthy of its position in the world and everything that could allude to the Svear was of course established as Svear. Main responsible for this project was Olof Rudbeck.
Still there are authors who copy those old imaginations that the Roman authors should have related about powerful Svear beginning of our chronology. From Swedish point of view it has been taken as a matter of course that "Scadinavia" means the Scandinavian peninsula. However, it ought to be Gotland that is meant. Plinius who died in 79 A.D. tells about the island "Scadinavia" that it lies straight out from the mouth of the Vistula.
The Greek-egyptian astronomer Ptolemaios says in his geography from the 3rd century that east of the Cimbrian peninsula are four islands called "Scandiai", the largest and most easterly lies north of the Vistula mouth. This is the island one thinks of when one talks about Skandia. The size and form agree quite well with Gotland.
It must be considered far-fetched and in the light of archæological finds as improbable that the tales by the Romans should be about the Scandinavian peninsula, which they called Thule. The origin of the word Svear is disputed and mistakes for Roman names on other people seems to be before us.
What we today call Svear or svioner only emerge into light beginning of the 6th century when they according to sources immigrate from the south bringing a new religion. When Christian learned men read Roman sources and found Latin words similar to svioner they used these words for the Svear.
Tore Gannholm
Another interesting theory was:
"All the sources I know, tell the sami as the indigenous people of Sweden. If they belong to the same group as the Finnish-Ugrian people, then it makes sense that they have moved over the whole country. The Hungarians where nomadic people, probably originally from the Kaukasus and further into Asia. My theory is that the inland ice forced divided the people into groups - one moving up north, and another (still) remaining in central Europe."
There is no consensus about the history of Hungaria but this theory always enraged my Hungarian friends. Hungaria:the homeland of Huns. here is an intersting Swedish document about the history of Hungaria relating them to Svears.

At the beginning of the 6th century large changes took place in the Lake Mälar Area of Sweden

1. Suddenly a Svea power appeared which was strong enough to wage war against the Gutar, island of Gotland in the Baltic sea. From where did those Svear come?

2. A new fashion in burying saw the light in the Lake Mälar Area during the 6th century. The burials were very ritual, which indicates that religion very much directed the treatment of man for the next life.

3. The Svear used the Roman Julian calendar which is considered to have been introduced in Uppland about the year 500. Still in the 17th century the Disthing-day in Uppsala was calculated according to this calendar.

4. The Æsir-religion which can be interpreted as the religion of the warlike masters makes its appearance whilst the Vana- belief probably was the religion of the peaceful farming people. The Æsir-religion can be considered a child of an Iranian religion, which after its founder, Mani, is called Manikeism. This religion gained, from the 4th century, wide acceptance outside of the Persian state of the time. The Æsir-religion has also borrowed ideas from early Christianity.

5. The Beowulf poem which in principle reflects the life of the Gutar and Gotland, also talks about the wars between the Gutar and Svear beginning of the 6th century.

6. In the Old Uppsala mounds the burial build-up, according to professor Sune Lindqvist, has been done in a similar way as the Roman Royal cremations.

7. The Heruls, a Scandinavian people which together with the Gutans, or Goths as the Romans called them, were, from the 3rd century, ravaging the Black Sea, Minor Asia and the Mediterranean. After having been subdued firstly by the Goths and later by the Huns, those Heruls formed in the middle of the 5th century a state in upper Hungary. There are several accounts about how the Heruls ravaged the shores of the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, alone and together with the Goths, why they must have been skillful seafarers. They were in great demand as soldiers in the Roman Imperial Guards. According to Roman sources they were a more primitive people than other Germanic people. The soldiers of Odovakar who assumed power in the Western Empire in the year 476 were according to available sources mainly Heruls. A Roman coin from 476 has been found in the Ottar mound in Uppland. This state of Odovakar was, however, soon overrun by the Theoderik and his Ostrogoths.

8. The Greek-Roman author Prokopios says that about the year 505 the Herul state in upper Hungary was smashed by the Longobards. Some of the Heruls settled in Illyria under the protection of the Caesar of the Eastern Empire, but another part could not, says Prokopios, decide whether they should cross the Danube but decided instead to settle in the furthest parts of the, in that time, inhabited world. They returned to Thule (Scandinavia) and settled along the borders of a powerful tribe which is called Gautoi (Götar). This takes place at the same time as a powerful Svea state with powerful kings emerges in the Lake Mälar Area.

9. The helmets in the Vendel graves in Uppland are also interesting. They are identified as the helmets of the Roman Imperial guards, the model that was in use in the 5th century. They are considered to be related to the Sassanitian helmets and have been manufactured in the Ostrogothic factories at the Black Sea. We know from pictures that the Germanic mercenaries on Roman duty carried those helmets. The helmet from the grave that is called Vendel XIV is the only in Europe remaining ornated helmet of the highest rank, the Roman Imperial house and general staff. Those for Vendel XIV strange face protections of Roman model underline the closeness to the Roman army.

10. Snorri Sturluson tells in Heimskringla about the origin of the Æsir (the men from Asia) and the Ynglinga dynasty. Snorre says that Odin travelled north to the country that now is called Svitjod; the king in that country was called Gylve. When he heard that the men from Asia, which were called Æsir, were on their way, he travelled to meet them and offered Odin to have as much power in his country as he himself wanted. Wherever they travelled in the countries they were lucky and there were good years and peace, and everybody thought that they had power over such things, as the old people saw that they were different to other men they had seen both in appearance and in customs. Odin thought that they had found beautiful fields and good soil and he chose a place that now is called Sigtuna. And wherever they travelled through the countries, there was much praising of them and they were regarded more as gods than humans. They were dressed in Roman armour similar to that we find in the Vendel graves.

11. The cultivation of the soil was drastically changed in Fornsigtuna (Old Sigtuna) at the beginning of the 6th century. Samples show lots of horses and an intensified activity in the area.

12. It is interesting to note that at the same time as the Heruls settle next to the Götar, a Svea state flourishes in the Lake Mälar Area with powerful warriors and warships. Accordingly we have two names for the same people, Heruls as the Romans called them and Svear (Sviar) as we today know them.
13. Let us now look at the Baltic area during the 6 th century. We have several historical sources where the relationship between Gutar and Svear are treated and by analysing those together a picture of the historical events appears. The Gutar dominated the Baltic up to the beginning of the 6th century when they met competition from the immigrating Svear with disturbances and war. Also a new religion is introduced into the area and it has its strongest following in the new main areas of the Svear where Uppsala becomes the centre. Gradually peace is negotiated and a peace- and trade-agreement is reached, according to the Guta Saga by Avair Strabain. We have no name of the Svea king, but probably he was called Adils.
As we have been able to show it is probably the Heruls mentioned by Prokopios who are the founders of the Ynglinga dynasty in the Svea state and become what we later know as Svear. Quite a few pieces now find its place in the puzzle. The wars between the Gutar and Svear in the Beowulf poem as well as the wars and the trade- treaty in the Guta Saga can now more easily be explained.
Gotland that, at least since the Bronze age, was the centre for trade and culture in the Baltic area did now obtain a peace- and trade-treaty with the Svear where they freely could trade with the inhabitants of the new Svea state and also build trading centres around the Baltic. As the Gutar were considered to be good ironsmiths, iron was an important merchandise.

[Merecir]

Where did u get this from???

[belgian]

Let me tell you before all that I am a very very curious person and I love history. I refuse to use history to justify ancestral hate among nations or admit superiority of a given people. I never believe what is usually presented as the "worthy" historical truth and make my own research to find it myself. I should admit that I never found it where it supposed to be and history always helped me to brake barriers among populations that we are eagerly building in our heads.

Here is the site where the history of Svea comes from: http://gotland.luma.com/Origin%20of%20Svear.html
The original source should be: "Gotland Östersjöns pärla centrum för handel och kultur i Östersjöområdet
under 2000 år", ISBN 91-972306-5-0 If you are not from Stockholm and don't consider Goteborg a very small town deep inside Sweden as my ex-girl friend used to do, you can also see these sites in Swedish from Goteborg University: http://www.rel.gu.se/lillterturlisto...t01/rk4400.htm
http://www.svenskhistoria.nu/forskning/98.html
They are both in Swedish so I can't understand them.

Are you ready to attack a big taboo in history? If you are with me, now I have a question for you. You probably heard about the golden Scythian jewelry and artifacts, mostly excavated from the ancient burial mounds of the Siberian plains with well preserved mummies of 6th century BC. These guys appeared at the moment the Herules left the Black Sea regions and returned back to Thule at least part of them. Have you heard about Viking or Scandinavian mummies? Do you have any idea of technics used or if there are any tattoos on their skin?
I can go much further in history with hypotheses if you can provide me with an answer. I will tell you what Fransis Van Nottem the chief archeologist of Royal Museums of Belgium told me about European mommies that disappointed me. He was the only European scientist participating in excavation of a tattoed female mommy buried 2500 years ago in Siberia. The grave had been flooded by freezing rain and the entire contents of the burial chamber had remained frozen in permafrost.


This paper of the famous Norvegian historian Thor Heyerdahl about the early history of Sweden will be interesting for you:

"Early Scandinavian History
We learn of the line of royal families in Denmark, Sweden and Norway. But we didn't take these stories about our beginnings seriously because they were so ancient. We thought it was just imagination, just mythology. The actual years for the lineage of historic kings began around the year 800 AD. So we learned all the kings in the 1,000 years that followed and did not interest ourselves in earlier names.
But I remember from my childhood that the mythology started with the god named Odin. From Odin it took 31 generations to reach the first historic king. The record of Odin says that he came to Northern Europe from the land of Aser. I started reading these pages again and saw that this was not mythology at all, but actual history and geography.
Snorre, who recorded these stories, started by describing Europe, Asia and Africa, all with their correct names, Gibraltar and the Mediterranean Sea with their old Norse names, the Black Sea with the names we use today again, and the river Don with its old Greek name, Tanais. So, I realized that this has nothing to do with the gods who lived with the Thunder god Thor among the clouds.
Snorre said that the homeland of the Asers was east of the Black Sea. He said this was the land that chief Odin had, a big country. He gave the exact description: it was east of the Black Sea, south of a large mountain range on the border between Europe and Asia, and extended southward towards the land of the Turks. This had nothing to do with mythology, it was on this planet, on Earth.
Then came the most significant point. Snorre says: "At that time when Odin lived, the Romans were conquering far and wide in the region. When Odin learned that they were coming towards the land of Asers, he decided that it was best for him to take his priests, chiefs and some of his people and move to the Northern part of Europe."
The Romans are human beings, they are from this planet, they are not mythical figures. Then I remember that when I came to Gobustan, I had seen a stone slab with Roman inscriptions. I contacted the Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan. I was taken to the place, and I got the exact wording of the inscription.
There's a very logical way of figuring out when this was written. It had to be written after the year 84 AD and before the year 97 AD. If this inscription matched Snorre's record, it would mean that Odin left for Scandinavia during the second half of the 1st century AD. Then I counted the members of the generations of kings, every king up to the grandfather of the king that united Norway into one kingdom, because such information is available - around 830 AD.
In anthropology we reckon 25 years per generation for ruling kings. In modern times, a generation may extend up to 30 years, but on average the length of a generation in early reigns is 25 years. When you multiply 31 generations by 25 years, you come exactly back to the second half of the 1st century AD. So there is proof that these inscriptions carved by the Romans in stone coincide with the written history written almost 1,800 years ago in Iceland.
We all know that the Northern people are called Caucasian. Here is where history, archeology, geography and physical anthropology come together.
The more I research the topic, the more evidence I find that this part of the planet has played a much more significant role than anybody ever suspected. I am working on a book at present together with a colleague, and we are halfway through it describing our observations.

Blond-Haired Mummies
In the meantime we have contacts with the Academies of Sciences in 11 nations. We do not want to leave anything out. The most surprising discovery was when we contacted Communist China. They had discovered blond-haired mummies in the Karim Desert deep inside China, so perfectly preserved in the cold climate and salty earth that you could see the color of the skin and hair. The Chinese archeologists were surprised because these mummies were not Mongoloids at all; they suspected instead that they were Vikings.
But it didn't make sense to me that Vikings should be deep inside the deserts of China. When the Chinese archeologists conducted radio-carbon dating, they determined that the mummies were of Nordic type dating from 1,800 to 1,500 years BC. But the Viking period started around 800 AD. It then became obvious that these mummies were not Vikings who had come to China. Here was a missing link. And again the Caucasus enters into the picture as a mutual migratory center.
But this is not the end of the story. These mummies were dressed in cloth that had been woven, and the colors and the woven pattern were of a very specific type. The Chinese themselves studied the mummies and then invited American experts to study the clothing who determined that the weave and coloring were typical of the Celts of Ireland. But this made no sense at all. Then we contacted Ireland to get their sagas, and their written saga says that their ancestors were Scythians. So, again, their roots come back here to the Caucasus.
This is only the beginning, because this is as far as we have obtained documentation from the Academies of Sciences with which we are in contact. I will not go into detail further, but I have also found archeological evidence that is so striking that there can no longer be any doubt.
My conclusion is that Azerbaijan has been a very important center, sending people in many directions and attracting people from many directions. You have had metals that made the Romans want to come here. But you have been very central in the evolution of civilization, and more than anything, this is proven by the petroglyphs in Gobustan."

[Didac]

There are still no holding evidences that prove that the Goths emerged from Sweden (or, rather, what is now known as Sweden). There are some linguistical evidences (similarities between Gothic and old Swedish) and the most famous Gothic historian, Jordanes, did state that the Goths came from the island “Scandia” in the Baltic sea. So it is a possibility that the Goths originated in Sweden, but it is only a thery.

Many Swedish historians have wanted to take “credit” of the Goths, claiming them to be Swedes. Among them was Olof Rudbeck, who was a great scholar but his historic research was colored by his patriotic dreams. To him Sweden was more or less the cradle of civilisation. In his huge work “Atland” he claims that the mythic land of Atlantis in fact was in Sweden, located near Old Uppsala. Moreover, the city of Troja could also be traced to Sweden according to Rudbeck.

One problem, as I se it, is that many of the historians who make great, "revolutionary" claims about the history often begins with a strong conviction and then tries to find evidences that fit their theory - and by doing that they also rejects facts that rejects their theory.

As Nietzsche said "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"

[belgian]

Accustom your children constantly to this; if a thing happened at one window, and they, when relating it, say that it happened at another, do not let it pass, but instantly check them; you do not know where deviation from truth will end.
—Boswell’s Life of Johnson

There are no facts, only interpretations.
—Friedrich Nietzsche

"We live at a time when truth is everywhere under attack. There is a widespread tendency to downgrade facts to matters of opinion—a tendency that follows naturally from the rejection of objective truth.the truth of what is said depends crucially upon the interests, prejudices, even the sex or ethnic origin of the speaker rather than—well, than the truth or falsity of what the speaker says. the public has an incredible appetite for historical reconstruction: that is, its appetite for history glamorized and minus the burdensome requirement to tell the truth."

I remember of a Science fiction movie of 80's entitled Raise the Titanic. It wass a really big budget movie, they even got Alec Guiness to play a survivor of Titanic's sinking. In fact as the titles says All we wanted is to see the actors raise the stinkin' ship. And surface she did: They formed a plan to patch up the holes in the liner's hull, flush the water out of the lower decks with a buoyant foam, and float her to the top with some sort of compressed gas: the glorious scenes in which the ship actually surfaced were quite impressive.
The facts were quiet different from the fantasy.
Titanic the pride of shipbuilding technology was not an unsinkable ship as the manufacturers claimed. In fact she was broken in two while sinking. The steel used in constructing the RMS Titanic would not be acceptable at the present time for any construction purposes and particularly not for ship construction. A metallurgical analysis of steel taken from the hull of the Titanic's wreckage reveals that it had a high ductile-brittle transition temperature, making it unsuitable for service at low temperatures; at the time of the collision, the temperature of the sea water was -2°C. The watertight bulkheads only extended 10 feet above the waterline, and could not seal the ship into completely separate watertight compartments.
We love to challange the nature but we should read more often historical facts.
Many years later a princess of an Ýsland greatly appreciated by Vikings was killed in an accident while cruising about 90 km/hour. Her luxurious car was claimed absolutely safe in case of accident for her passangers.



In 1898, 14 years prior to Titanic's sinking, English author Morgan Robertson wrote a fictional book called "Futility". The book was about about the largest passenger liner ever built, the "Titan". (It gets better)
The Titan sets sail across the Atlantic in the month of April on her maiden voyage.
The Titan is going too fast that night.
They are overconfident and think she is unsinkable.
The Titan strikes an iceberg, and sinks, taking most of the passengers with her because she only has lifeboats for a small fraction of the 2,000 people on board.
(Robertson was trying to illustrate mankind's growing lack of respect for the forces of nature, and the increasingly dangerous reliance on technology with the book.)
More weirdness- Robertson's Titan is almost exactly the same length and tonnage of the Titanic. His has Triple Screws, and can carry as much as 3,000 people, much like the Titanic. And the fictional ship is packed with rich celebrities, who's money and status can't save them, much like the actual one.

If you love doedelzaks this site is for you: http://www.doedelzak.com/

Who are the Scandinavians?Scandinavia are usually referred to as the three nations Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The Scandinavian peninsula, however, consist only of the two nations Norway and Sweden. This peninsula is referred to as Scandza in old Roman documents, but the people living there are better explained as mixed groups of breeds from several places by origin. Two main groups were the Germanic and Uralian tribes.Scandinavia was once a strict tribal society and the tribes here had once come millenniums ago. They followed the withdraw of the glaciers, who covered a great deal of Europe once, but started to melt and withdraw 13,000 years ago. They were all hunters and fishers at the time and at first they came as either individuals or in small groups. Later, though, whole tribes arrived.We can't go in details about these tribes, but merely point to the fact that several tribes probably came about the same time. Some had a north-easterly origin, while others had a south-easterly or southern origin. The everlasting discussion of who came first is therefore not really very interesting to us, because it must have been several tribes arriving about equally. Both the Sami and Kveni people, who were of Uralic origin, claims to be the natives of Scandinavia, but this is probably no more right or wrong than that the Germanic tribes are. The big question therefore really is, should the rest of us treat them specially?We think so, because they are certainly as native as the Germanic people in the south and should therefore also have a system according to their traditions, which happens to be far from ours. They are not immigrants to this area, though their culture may have forced the to move around more that the rest of us. However, we think it's a big difference when it comes to claiming their rights to a own country, because countries this far north was something built on a totally different culture, the agricultural revolution which in time led to the building of states. They were never a part of this evolution, but made choice to be nomads. Nonetheless, this doesn't mean that they don't have equal rights to what these countries today have, nor does it mean they don't contribute themselves.The agricultural revolutionHowever, as told, something happened which later would make a big difference between the people who had come here, because the agricultural revolution also reached Scandinavia. And to make a long story short; The tribal Scandinavians had been hunters and fishers, but changes in the climate and an increasingly population had led to a insufficient amount of wild animals to hunt on. They had to find new ways to survive - agriculture.The agricultural came here from the south, so the Germanic tribes took up this new way of life to survive. In the beginning as a supplement to their hunting and fishing, but agriculture soon became their main source of survival. The Uralic tribes had followed the edge of the withdrawing glaciers to hunt on the crowds of reindeers, but over killing had made the herds insufficient for them too. Agriculture was not very prosperous that far north, so they had to find a different way to survive and therefore started herding the wild animals. However, this did not happen before much later in time, because Roman annals mentions them as a hunting people well into the first century.As a result of the agricultural revolution in Scandinavia, the Germanic tribes had to stop their constant movement and settle down. This change in the way of living grew into small tribal societies in the beginning, which later would occupy greater and greater land areas all over Scandinavia. Prior to the foundation of the nations, these societies had grown into small kingdom-like areas, which was ruled by a superior class of individuals from certain families. Intermarrying across these invisible borders made these small kingdoms constantly to grow. The Viking Age is really nothing but the last stage of this nation-like development, which in fact lasted for many centuries.Why did the Scandinavians become Vikings?Paganism still ruled in Scandinavia in the 9th century and the people worshiped their pagan gods according to the local traditions. The great agricultural revolution had made the once hunting people into farmers and fishers many centuries ago and further development had made great progress in the agricultural development, but also made more people survive so the population had perhaps increased even more. Again the land could no longer support sufficient supplies to the whole population, or at least not the way they wanted.The Scandinavians had been skilled seafarers for centuries and it so happened that the increase in the population came contemporary with a certain development in the technology of building ships, which at the end made it all possible. The discovery of the keel did not only make it possible to rig the boats for sailing, but also to make them bigger and faster than ever before. The Kvalsund boat, as seen in the drawing above, still has a shape more like a big canoe, but we can still glance the coming of the Viking ship in it. Kvalsund is dated to approximately 700 AD and bear no marks of being rigged for sailing. Nonetheless, there is still clearly a big difference between this and the late 4th century Nydam ship found in Denmark. Also, the construction of the Kvalsund boat could made rigging possible, so I may be that others were at the time.Still, it's strange that the Scandinavians hadn't managed to adapt their boats to the act of sailing much earlier, because they must have known about it since the late 5th century. The Roman ships had sails, so the invading Danes to the Britannia must have been familiar with the sailing technique. However, the Roman ships were certainly not very suitable in Scandinavian waters, so perhaps they understood that another technology was necessary, because it must have taken at least another 2-2½ centuries before sailing became possible to the Scandinavians.Exactly where and why they attacked and became Vikings we don't know, but in 789 AD we know that some, probably Scandinavians, killed a man in southern England. We don't recognize this as the beginning, but then came the sudden attack on the monastery at Lindisfarne in 793 AD, which certainly marks the start of it. It is obvious that the those who attacked must have known about the values of the monastery, but the discovery may have been accidental. Soon the word must have spread, about monasteries being easy targets filled with items of gold and silver the pagan Scandinavians desired. What we don't know is if the Scandinavians actually left to pirate the monastery at Lindisfarne the first time or if they left to do something else.Within a few years Vikings attacked all over Europe. Danes from the east and south and Norwegians from the north and west. In the beginning as small unorganized groups of people, but later better organized and in larger groups. The pagan culture of Scandinavia at the time made the Christian culture they met in the monasteries and elsewhere mean nothing to them. Only the strong-man's-law existed from where they came, and this may even turn out to be the main reason for why at least some of them came.