Palestine

[Marmaduke]

Originally posted by rollo
Hey Jasper,

Are you bloody thick? Whose a flunky to whose propaganda now then?

I guess you don't realize that your lovely Palestinians are strapping bombs to themselves and entering cafes, discos, buses, schools, etc. and blowing themselves up in order to kill as many innocent people as possible! These people are cold-blooded murderers!

If people were entering your lovely Sweden and doing the same, how would you react. I think that Israel has been quite restrained. They could take care of the situation in a day if they chose to do it. The Israeli government has the right and the DUTY to defend its citizens the way that any other country would do. Why do you make them an exception?

Bloody cretin!

I think Paka was right, an argument seems a little to much to expect from you...otherwise you might have managed to form one, but hell, we have all day....

First, Mr Brain, I am not Swedish. Guess it was too much trouble to find that out for yourself was it ? YOu write about propoganda yet talk of 'my beloved Sweden'. Well you're some sh!t hot researcher aren't you- can even get the bost BASIC facts right for starters.

Lets take my own country then for example shall we, I'll walk you through this slowly- hate for you to be confused here.

We have had terrorism from the IRA for about the last 90 years or more. More than 3000 people have died- mainly civilians. In the early 1980s they tried to assasinate the government in the Brighton Bombing.

Did we bulldoze houses ? Did we send in F16s, did we cut of food and water, prevent children from going to school. No we did not. Our governments tried to get peace even when it became bloody hard to face, but with US help we have finally managed to almost acheive it.

Now, consider this. Had the UK behaved in the way Israel has, do you think everyone would be running around cheering for their 'firm stance' I doubt it very much.

We showed restraint all I ask if for the Sharon administration to do the same. They might start with stop building in the occupied territories for one (400,000 settlers since Olso requested this practice cease). They might also try and let the Palestinians resolve some of the intrinsic problems themselves. Only a week or so ago, the Palestinian cabinet resigned and it began to look like there was some real chance that Arafat might be forced down and a more reasonable leader elected, one with perhaps greater links and influence to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. Thanks to recent events Sharon has wasted that opportunity and Arafat becomes an almost martyr figure. One can only wonder if this was Sharon's intentions all along, which if it is, shows just how important peace is to him.

BTW- I noted you pathetic little comment about Sweden on the open board. Do that kind of thing again and you won't be returning to this board. Just thought I would let you know. I don't mind you disagreeing with me (or anyone else here) but behave like that again and you are off here. get it. I hope I don't have to remind you again. It seems you have shown just what lame arguments you are capable of here, so I won't be holding my breath.

thank mod, cheers jasp !

Rollo,

I think I'm pretty neutral on this issue, as I'm still forming my opinions.

But I have to say, Jasper appears to speak more factually, less emotionally and with greater objectivity than you do in your arguments.

These issues are literally of life and death importance. As such, I would think you would state your case carefully in order to convince those of us who are still taking in all the observations.

By resorting to name-calling and slander, you have pretty much turned me off to your way of thinking, and to the validity of what you say. Right or wrong as you may be, you have undermined your own argument.

Pity; I might have listened to you carefully. But after hearing your repeated insults, do you really think I would want YOUR type of advocacy to be in control of things?

Certainly not. I'd clearly pick Jasper's, for the reasons I've just stated.

[rollo]

Listen Jasper,

You are right about the IRA bombings. We should have acted more firmly with them. There's a difference here though.

Israel is getting bombed everyday!! Name me one country that would not or could not react to that??? Israel has the RIGHT and the DUTY to protect its citizens. If anything, Israel has shown too much restraint--if they did not listen to the rest of the world's complaints, they could have taken care of the Palestinian problems in a day.

Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians statehood on a platter, and what did the Palestinians do?? THEY rejected it, THEY renewed the violence, THEY started suicide bombings. The Palestinians and the Arabs want nothing more than to completely destroy Israel.

You are right. This is a matter of life and death, and the Israelis are fighting for their lives against fanatics who will blow themselves up in order to murder as many innocent civilians as possible. Israel has never sent in suicide bombers to murder innocent people in buses, cafes, schools, or discos, have they??? Israel, however, is surrounded by fanatics who want nothing more than to kill Israelis and to destroy Israel. What more evidence do you need? Do I have to show you pictures? Do you need the words of Arabs themselves to prove it to you?

[rollo]

Do you believe that Israel has the right to exist?

And does Israel have the right to protect its citizens against suicide bombings?

It seems that you would answer a resounding "No" to both.

[Marmaduke]

Again you jump in without bothering to read any of my posts I have had with others on this board and draw erroneous conclusions. You started off condeming what you saw as hypocricy, only to then demonstrate the same lack of objectivity by making conclusions based on what you think I believe, rather than what I have plainly stated on this board many times.

So let me say it yet again.

Israel has a right to exist, I have never said otherwise.

Israel has a right of self defence as does Palestine.

I condem the suicide bombings even though I may understand the desperation that leads to them, but that does not make them right.

I condem the actions of the Sharon adminsitration (and of many previous ones). Ones that have used the supply of water and food as a method of oppression (or do you think the Palestinians can survivie on thin air). That have used oppresive military methods to opress the Palestinian people while claiming this is' self preservation'. Before Sharon there had been almost 2 years without such attacks- he becomes elected and what do you get ? Israel refuses independent observoprs- the UK has not. Bombings did not take place every day in UK, but I can remember the horros of the indescriminate bombings in London in the 1970s, and I don't need to remind you that the IRA have targeted cilivians both in Ireland and in the UK.

Israel has never sent in suicide bombers to murder innocent people in buses, cafes, schools, or discos, have they???

Well, that only shows how limited your reading is. Only last week the IDF, stopped an extremist group from bombing a Palestinian school, in the 1980s other extremist also tried to target Palestinian civilians.

I accept this is nothing compared to what is happening to the Israeli people, but don't think it hasn't happened.

I re-state my original claim, the resignation of Arafat's cabinet was a crucial event (I have briefly touched on this with Ahmz- and Isreali who confirmed the importance of this). At this time there were moves within the PLA that might have lead to Arafat being displaced by more moderate people- if not only for him to be given a 'figure head' position but with control moving to others more respected within the Israeli circles. What did Sharon do- he attacked Arafat's compund becuse of the suicide bombers. But Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed those attacks. The the IDF demanded 20 people be handed over as suspected terrorists. The it was 19, then 50, in the end they admitted they did not even have a list of people and asked Arafat to provide one. It was a farce and I found a repulisive exercise in threat and force that may have put in serious risk the possibility that a more reasonable Palestinian administration could have exrecised greater control on what is, I accept, a corrupt and powerless adminsitration.

Now, here I speculate. Ahmz once wrote that he disliked Sharon and that 'he is not a man of peace, but these are not times of peace'. I can see the point he made here. Sharon has shown little desire for talking- prefering this to be exercised by IDF tanks and bulldozers. What would happen if a moderate Palestinian leadership was elected. One that have had previous strong links with Israeli ministers and command some respect ? An administration that Washington might find harder to ignore ? Would there be a turn of opinion both in Israel and abroad. IF it were demonstrated that the Palestinians were making real moves to police themselves and to try and prevent further attacks- what would Sahron and Bush have to fall back on then. A rapidly growing tide of public opinion in both Israel and abroad that might start to put some serious pressure on 'one tactic' man Sharon ? What would he do then ? If they started to implement (or move towards) the agreements signed under Olso and Camp David- what are Israel going to do with the 400,000 illegally housed settlers ? What are they going to do about their continued violation of UN sanctions (especially as the US has stressed just how important these are for other countries to observe- so lets start a little closer to home then shall we).

I'll chuck in my dollars worth. Sharon won't have a clue and his adminstration will eventually collapse under the weight of a man that knows only one method of debate- shoot first and ask questions later (cf: Sabra/Shatilla).

Ahmz was more right than he may have believed when he said Sharon is a man of war. Let the Palestinians get rid of Arafat (as it seems this might have been becoming more of a possibility) but then let Israel get rid of Sharon too. They are the nemesis of each other and both should go. The difference being, Sharon seems to have the upper hand, and all the while the US blindly accepts whatever he does as 'acceptable self defence' he always will. The US has as much to answer for here as Sharon does.

There was almost a chance for some real change to come about, and Sharon stopped that from coming to fruition through his militaristic actions. That is what is most depressing about this whole situation- we can now watch the whole thing repeat itself.

[Marmaduke]

while you are here Rollo,

I actually found your posts about how boring you found Sweden, quite funny (then I'm not Swedish) but where you posted one saying all Swedes were w**kers' was totally unacceptable and that is why I deleted it.

I hope you can retain your original sense of humour without resorting to that again, or they will be deleted.

[rollo]

Japer,

Do you have any idea why Sharon was elected??

The Prime Minister preceding him, Ehud Barak, staked all of his political capital on peace with Arafat. Barak worked hard to bring peace, but Arafat rejected all of his overtures.

Barak offered Arafat and the Palestinians statehood on a platter, offered to return to the pre-1967 boundaries, get rid of all the settlements, and give a generous development assistance package. All that was asked in return was a recognition of Israel's right to exist and an end to the violence.

What did Arafat do??? HE rejected it. HE renewed the violence. HE allowed Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and his own Fatah group's minions. the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, to commence suicide bombings!! It became pretty clear to the vast majority of Israelis that Arafat and the Palestinian people want to destroy Israel.

It is then that Sharon was elected. Before that, Sharon would have never had a chance to become Prime Minister. In a sense, Arafat rehabilitated him and brought him to power.

Do you blame Israeli skepticism about Arafat and the Palestinians??? Do you blame them for wanting a leader who will get tough and say "NO MORE"!!??

What is Israel supposed to do?? They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. I think Israel has to ignore what the rest of the world thinks and do whatever it needs to protect itself.

[Marmaduke]

Rollo, that is the classic argument that everyone gives and it is also the classic example of how the matter has been simplisticly reported in the mainstreem press. The matter is far more complicated than you suggest here, and I have had this debate twice before.

Forgive me if I don't go through it all again, but this issue was debated between Barak and one of Clinton's special envoys to the Camp David talks. The discussion takes over 60 pages in the New York Review of Books. I will find the web link, but one thing you will find if you take the time to read it is full (and it is very long and detailed) is that the view you have expressed here about Arafat is just wrong. Arafat did turn down what would have been a historic agreement, the thing you miss is that the details were never actually put to him, only after the talks failed were the Israeli details released. There were many reasons for why they failed and Barak has wanted to paint a far better picture of himself than real life showed (as his government was on the brink of defeat and he did not want to appear to appease the Palestinians, which is why he would only agree to certain terms if Arafat would accept certain conditions on trust without knowing the full details of what he was going to do). Barak claimed to be the prime minsiter that 'made the least concessions to the Palestinians' so I don't think you can just state it was all Arafat's fault. In addition, neither side could agree about the division of Jeruslam, which only added to the misstrust that developed between the two sides.

AS I have written else where, I would like to see both Arafat and Sharon go and to be replaced be leaders that aren't constantly seeking to replay old wars, some fresh blood that takes a more reasoned and pragmatic approach, but until that day comes, we will be left with Sharon pursuing a policy that has failed to bring any of the promised peace his strong line promised. It is time for change all round.

I will find the link to the New York Review of Books and post it a bit later if you don't mind, it is getting late here, and I don't want to empty the contents of my 'filing' system (for that read box of mess) at this time. Hopefully tomorrow.

[janyn]

Originally posted by Jasperthecat
while you are here Rollo,

I actually found your posts about how boring you found Sweden, quite funny (then I'm not Swedish) but where you posted one saying all Swedes were w**kers' was totally unacceptable and that is why I deleted it.

I hope you can retain your original sense of humour without resorting to that again, or they will be deleted.

this would be respectable jasper.. if you would hold the other moderators to this same rule.. but i have read replies from most of the moderators that are far worse than calling someone a "w**ker" whatever that means.
just disagree with nique sometime,, youll see what i mean.

[janyn]

England987
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 312
The Israelis are arseholes. Look at you, with all your military equipment, that you only got from the Americans. If it wasn't for the fact that Jews rule the United States, Israel would have nothing. The poor Palestinians have to resort to suicide bombings because they have got NOTHING ELSE to defend themselves from the weapons that the Israelis got from the US.

here's an example of a senior member giving a pretty nasty comment that eluded your deletion jasper...
will he get warned for this? i think arsehole is worse than "w**kers"??? or at least on the same level...

[Marmaduke]

Originally posted by janyn
England987
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 312
The Israelis are arseholes. Look at you, with all your military equipment, that you only got from the Americans. If it wasn't for the fact that Jews rule the United States, Israel would have nothing. The poor Palestinians have to resort to suicide bombings because they have got NOTHING ELSE to defend themselves from the weapons that the Israelis got from the US.

here's an example of a senior member giving a pretty nasty comment that eluded your deletion jasper...
will he get warned for this? i think arsehole is worse than "w**kers"??? or at least on the same level...

Actually Janyn- I wasn't a moderator here at the time this comment was made so I couldn't have deleted this comment. In any case, had you bothered to look, I had requested England stop calling people such names and deleted posts where he didn't.

I have no time for such narrow and stupid view such as he posted here.

But, before you make accusations, Janyn- try and get your facts straight OK ?

[janyn]

England987
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 312
The Israelis are arseholes. Look at you, with all your military equipment, that you only got from the Americans. If it wasn't for the fact that Jews rule the United States, Israel would have nothing. The poor Palestinians have to resort to suicide bombings because they have got NOTHING ELSE to defend themselves from the weapons that the Israelis got from the US.


13th February 2004 03:08

i swear nique.. when i read your replies, i get this vision of a little girl with pom poms cheering for every word jasper says...

sorry jasper... the proper time and date of the posting is here... 13th february 2004.. you were a moderator last month right?

[janyn]

well, nique , if you and your fellow moderators were doing your job.. and stopping such hatred to be displayed on this site.. then i could relax,, and get back to responding to threads... and that thread isnt so old as you say.. last month?

it justs seems funny how a reply that disagrees with yours, jaspers, lucyd, gets deleted,,,"censored" while this one seems to get "overlooked"?


BTW, thisdude is in the middle of testing about 800 students... needless to say he is abit busy these days..
but he sends his regards

[janyn]

Originally posted by Niquie
LMAO as well.

subtance.. like this deep reply you gave? i bet i could go through your replies and pull out about 50 of them that say nothing but,, wooo jasper,, wow jasper,,, cheers jasper,, good post jasper,,,