Is Turkey a European country???

[imported_Greek]

http://hrw.org/reports/world/turkey-pubs.php

I don't think so and i expect from the european governments to evenually oppose US plans concerning Turkey's application. Recall Ziscar D'Esten's words: the entrance of Turkey will automatically mean the end of the European dream. I'm not against its entrance but i don't see how this can happen...not this Turkey

[Suleyman_Aga]

I wonder why you Greeks can´t live without offending the Turks...

[imported_Greek]

Originally posted by Jacques
I wonder why you Greeks can´t live without offending the Turks...

I'm not offending anyone. believe it or not i feel sympathy for Turks. I couldn't have any other feeling but sympathy for someone whose not living in a DEMOCRATIC environment. Moreover, I feel sad for someone whose in terrible economic situation ( the whole world knows that the eastern part of turkey is one of the most poorest places on earth)! I feel miserable for someone who has to deal with the military army in his daily practise!! I feel upset for all those people who can't express their opinion freely without worrying that may end up in prison (recall the famous white cells!!). So forget your propaganda about how much the Greeks hate the Turks. Still, i feel hate for the military status that rules Turkey and objects to people rights!! I feel hate for all those Turks who invaded Cyprus and keep the island divided!!! I hate the Turks who have no respect to human rights!! so I guess the only question is which part are u favor of??? the military? or the ordinary turkish people who UNFORTUNATELY have to deal with the above problems???
But the question has already been answered!!!SEE BELOW

Originally posted by Jacques

No I think you are wrong...
The very truth is that EU is a Nazi club, a lot of countries in crisis (political and social) trying to show a little of civilization to the world... I think Turkey is much better than EU, it´s true, EU has money annd a lot of things, but the Turks are alive, happy, sounds... the contrary of decadent Europe...
Ah, it´s interesting the role of Greece in EU... Greece is just where the real Europeans go to forget the hard work... a kind of pitorest land, a zoo (maybe...). Turkey won´t become EU´s zoo...it´s Greece´s role there...



Regards to ProudTurk!!!

Don't forget people have the ability to thing regardless your propaganda

[kotu_kedi]

Greek, my friend, Jacques asks you to stop offending, but you offend further under the cover of "sympathy".

Thank you, we don't need your sympathy in that case. Our democracy is good enough. At least (unlike the so democratic UK and so democratic "new Europe" countries) we make our decisions based on our public opinion instead of automatically signing up with the strongest warmonger. Even when the decision doesn't favor our national security interests, and even when our own military wants to sign up for it (oh another allegation goes down)!

Yes, eastern Turkey is really poor thanks to the this guy in the picture:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/281322.stm

(You know, if the victims were US citizens, you'd be growing opium now.)

But you don't need to pity us for that, go pity yourself for breeding racist hatred.

Man, you guys gotta cut this anti-Turk crap. Like it or not, you guys have been living next to us since the day your country was born, and you will keep living next to us in the foreseable future.

You can cut this crap, build good relations with your neighbor, and mutually benefit from it. Or you can continue the crap, continue living in Turkish crusade paranoia, and keep forcing your children spend months at Turkish border as a soldier.

Either way, it's yer choice.

[imported_Greek]

First of all, I think you r a bit confused Greece has a history of some thousand years whereas Turkey is founded in 1915 if I’m not mistaken so…..

When Turkey finally decides to abandon this idiot threat of casus beli maybe our youth won’t have to serve the army
When Turkey finally decides to accept the current status quo of the Aegean and abandon its ‘invention’ of the ‘Grey Zones’ theory maybe our soldiers need not to be send in the Turkish borders
When Turkey finally decides to stop the division of a whole island maybe the two countries relations will be strengthen
When Turkey finally decides to Democratize itself maybe Greece won’t feel so insecure about the generals who rule the country

Until then....

[politics_student]

who is responsible from the division of the island 13 points of Makrios,assaults of Grivas?who have started the Cyprus Problem?who today permitted the free movement denktas or your previous terrorist tasos papadopulos who himself got into the assaults of a Turkish village 'Küçük Kaymaklý'
I love my country and my people very much(especially as I have lived 2 years abroad)and I can't endure it Grrek side always interfering into our affairs with the help of EU(embesil union)Why do u always hide behind EU could Grrece cannot deal with its affairs own??So we won't you to define us what democracy is and how we should live better this is our issue.

[imported_Greek]

Oh boy, why are you doing this to me? What have I done to deserve you?
Aren’t you the one who believe that he should live his life according to the desires and values of Attaturk the butcher who lived 80 years ago?

I have said it so many times but what the heck once again especially for you
These changes had to be made. Otherwise Cyprus would have no future. You should learn that according to the initial agreement, the TC side (under guess whose leadership?) had the right to veto any decision of the national bureau. Guess what happened! TC veto all decisions of the state even those with the least importance. Sorry, but the Cypriots have every right in the world to organize a state in which they can prosper!!! Look what happened after that!!! Take a look at the financial situation of the free parts and the conditions under the TC have to live with!!!! No wonder, why GC ask for these changes. Turkey was looking for a ‘justifiable’ reason to invade and she found it after all!!!

You should also learn that the only reason that Denktash open the borders for the GC to be able to visit their homes, is because he hopes that he will gain recognition for his ‘state’ , a state that exists only for Turkey. He uses peoples’ desire to visit their homes to achieve his own goals . a vain effort let me say!!! Why do you thing he imposed so many threats on TC who want to visit the free part?
Or if he is so much in favor of an agreement, where was he all these months?
Now listen this: Greece is a member of EU (it has even the presidency this semester) and it is inevitable to work its external affairs via EU. Greece is a Democratic state unwilling to get engage in a possible conflict with Turkey . it helps her get her job done easily!!!
No, it is not only your issue as long as the political confusion in Turkey affects Greece and the rest of the neighboring countries


I will repeat my wish to you: try to live your life the way you want without feel restricted by the words of a man who’s dead and his own way of life is still under consideration

[kotu_kedi]

In reply to Greek:

>>First of all, I think you r a bit confused Greece has a history of some thousand years whereas Turkey is founded in 1915 if I’m not mistaken so….. <<

I didn't say your history. Modern Greece got its indep. from Ottoman in 1829(?). And you've been living next to Turks since then (and in the Turks for a while before then).

Btw, Turkey was founded in 1923, not 1915.

>>When Turkey finally decides to abandon this idiot threat of casus beli maybe our youth won’t have to serve the army
<<

My friend, if Turkey had any intention to invade Greece, it would have happened by now. Also there are things such as international law or public opinion that prevents such an action. Otherwise we both know that having your youth serve in the army will not change the result of such an operation.

>>When Turkey finally decides to accept the current status quo of the Aegean and abandon its ‘invention’ of the ‘Grey Zones’ theory maybe our soldiers need not to be send in the Turkish borders <<

Sorry that we can't get along well together. But you should understand that massing you soldiers will not make Turkey change her mind. You can seek solutions in a civilized way instead.

>>When Turkey finally decides to Democratize itself maybe Greece won’t feel so insecure about the generals who rule the country <<

Thank you, we like our democracy and also our generals. If you don't like it, you can turn your face somewhere else. You neither vote nor influence in any way.

[kotu_kedi]

>>I have said it so many times but what the heck once again especially for you
These changes had to be made. Otherwise Cyprus would have no future. You should learn that according to the initial agreement, the TC side (under guess whose leadership?) had the right to veto any decision of the national bureau. Guess what happened! TC veto all decisions of the state even those with the least importance. Sorry, but the Cypriots have every right in the world to organize a state in which they can prosper!!!<<

You know I totally agree with you. I was also thinking that maybe US should take over Greece too. You know, look at Greece now, and think how developed and prosper it would be if US had taken it over. I can imagine, Lincoln Navigators are being produced in Athens, a planet hollywood in Ioannina.. And people would prosper too, but you guys are preventing it. Don't do the same mistake that Turkey did once in Cyprus, just give Greece to US so that it would prosper.

[imported_Greek]

In reply to Greek:

>>First of all, I think you r a bit confused Greece has a history of some thousand years whereas Turkey is founded in 1915 if I’m not mistaken so….. <<

I didn't say your history. Modern Greece got its indep. from Ottoman in 1829(?). And you've been living next to Turks since then (and in the Turks for a while before then).

Btw, Turkey was founded in 1923, not 1915.



What a perspective!!! I thought I would never hear such a thing in my life but you manage to amaze me!!! Indeed!!! Now listen the truth about Turkey try to match up the pieces and you might accept it despite the propaganda you received: you are good only in stealing: you have no history so you had to invent one, you ‘steal’ the religion from the Arabs and now you hate them!! You ‘steal’ Greek history and you hate Greeks. Greece has been there for centuries, the state of Turkey was created artificially and for that is doomed in failure (see my reply to the Turkey.com )


>>When Turkey finally decides to abandon this idiot threat of casus beli maybe our youth won’t have to serve the army
<<

My friend, if Turkey had any intention to invade Greece, it would have happened by now. Also there are things such as international law or public opinion that prevents such an action. Otherwise we both know that having your youth serve in the army will not change the result of such an operation.


Well, if we take Cyprus as an example It doesn’t seem to me that Turkey respects the international laws or the public opinion but whatever it suits you I still remember Turkey’s objection to the Iraqi war because of the UN resolution required but it didn’t say anything about the 2 resolutions about Cyprus

Sorry to ruin your dreams but Turkey can’t invade Greece because that would be the end of your country should I remind you the economic situation of Turkey? it will collapse in a day



>>When Turkey finally decides to accept the current status quo of the Aegean and abandon its ‘invention’ of the ‘Grey Zones’ theory maybe our soldiers need not to be send in the Turkish borders <<

Sorry that we can't get along well together. But you should understand that massing you soldiers will not make Turkey change her mind. You can seek solutions in a civilized way instead.


I told you above why Turkey is not capable of getting engage in a war. But on the other hand who can trust the generals??? :P :P besides after the creation of Kurdistan and the beginning of the process of Turkey’s deconstruction, nobody can guarantee what would happen to such an occasion


>>When Turkey finally decides to Democratize itself maybe Greece won’t feel so insecure about the generals who rule the country <<

Thank you, we like our democracy and also our generals. If you don't like it, you can turn your face somewhere else. You neither vote nor influence in any way.


This is not what I’m hearing man!! The Islamic party is in power and that’s the strongest prove that Kemalism is no longer accepted by the vast majority of the Turkish people

regards

[politics_student]

I expect you to hate Ataturk because he had gained the war of independence against Greeks.I only admire him!!I don't stuck with his words I admire him because I am a Turk and he is the establisher of this country and he has done very good things for this country!
What a wrong conclusion opening of doors,namely free movement of people doesn't mean recognition and a clever politician like Denktas should know this.Denktas didn't have begged for 29 years anything from Greeks,and he wouldn't also beg recognition from Greeks!but his actual aim for opening doors is 1)to break the opposition directed against him 2)to show Greek people the reality and Greek Cypriots have seen the reality! Greeks who have visited their old homes were very warmly welcomed by Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish family who wanted to see their old home were attacked!what a democratic people are the Greeks)Democracy can't be sold with money it is in hearts I think.
As kotukedi has said we love our country and our military and nobody can destroy this!!
Thank you for your wishbut I trust in myself and don't get stuck with some others words! and I have a wish for you to: DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY :P bye

[imported_Greek]

Originally posted by kotu_kedi
>>I have said it so many times but what the heck once again especially for you
These changes had to be made. Otherwise Cyprus would have no future. You should learn that according to the initial agreement, the TC side (under guess whose leadership?) had the right to veto any decision of the national bureau. Guess what happened! TC veto all decisions of the state even those with the least importance. Sorry, but the Cypriots have every right in the world to organize a state in which they can prosper!!!<<

You know I totally agree with you. I was also thinking that maybe US should take over Greece too. You know, look at Greece now, and think how developed and prosper it would be if US had taken it over. I can imagine, Lincoln Navigators are being produced in Athens, a planet hollywood in Ioannina.. And people would prosper too, but you guys are preventing it. Don't do the same mistake that Turkey did once in Cyprus, just give Greece to US so that it would prosper.

I'm now a 100% possitive that a similar reasoning prevailed and Turkey divided the island 30 years ago

[kotu_kedi]

GREEK wrote:

>>Now listen the truth about Turkey try to match up the pieces and you might accept it despite the propaganda you received: you are good only in stealing: you have no history so you had to invent one, you ‘steal’ the religion from the Arabs and now you hate them!! You ‘steal’ Greek history and you hate Greeks. Greece has been there for centuries, the state of Turkey was created artificially and for that is doomed in failure (see my reply to the Turkey.com )<<

I SAY:

Dude, nobody hates your history or hates your country, I don't know how you got that impression. I am telling you, some of you (like yourself) are paranoiac and think that we Turks entertain ourselves with negative thoughts about Greeks and their history. I am sorry, but you are either brainwashed, or you are immature.

Actually by reading what you wrote, anyone can see that you (singular "you") hate Turkish history and Turkey. I have nothing to say to you.

GREEK WROTE

>> Your country is bad.. BLAH BLAH BLAH.. Your country sucks..BLAH BLAH BLAH.. Your ecnomy is weak.. BLAH BLAH BLAH <<

Man, I am telling you. You're full of hatred. You gotta cut this crap out.

I just said bye to a Greek friend of mine yesterday, he's going to serve in Greek military for 12 mnths. And thanks to paranoiac facists like yourself he said he'll be serving at the Turkish border for 6 months.

GREEK SAID:
>>Sorry to ruin your dreams but Turkey can’t invade Greece because that would be the end of your country should I remind you the economic situation of Turkey? it will collapse in a day <<

I SAY:
See you have serious logic flaws. It may be an economic disaster AFTER an invasion as a result of the PAST war. So invasion success is not affected by the following ecenomic trouble. Anyways, and if the Turkish ecenomy were to collapse after a war, then it would be more terrible for you too. There's a saying: "Be scared of the one who has nothing left to lose". You know what I mean?

GREEK SAID:
>>This is not what I’m hearing man!! The Islamic party is in power and that’s the strongest prove that Kemalism is no longer accepted by the vast majority of the Turkish people
<<

I SAY:

Haha you wish.

AKP got only 33% of total votes, not the majority of the voters. And AKP got that many votes by disassociating itself from its "Islamic party" history, and declaring itself as a "Conservative Party". At least the party leader said so before elections. So even most of that 33% voted for a conservative party, not an islamic party. What does "Islamic party" means anyways? Did you ever hear a term like "Christianic Party"?

So my friend, your allegation is disproved twice.

And I must remind you that being religious or conservative or whatever is not equal to anti-Kemalism.

[imported_Greek]

To you my blind friend:

The funny thing about the Turks who visit these kinds of forums is that they always appear as the ones that they don’t have any problems with the Greeks or pretty much likes them or like ‘if a Turk meets a Greek in UK there will be best mates’ etc.
They seem to ignore or somehow someway forget that ( I’m going to repeat myself unfortunately here) that it is Turkey that threatens Greece with a war ( casus beli ) and not the other way around!!!! It is Turkey that claims Greek territories ( Trace, even several of the Greek islands!!!!!) and not the other way around!!!! It is Turkey that keeps divided Cyprus and not Greece!!!!! It is Turkey that constantly and on a daily basis violates the Greek air space and not the other way around!!!!!! Etc
So please spear me with your bull****!!!!

Oh, just because you are new here and in the Turkey.com I should tell you that I have two Turkish friends from UK and we get along perfectly fine because they are open minded and they see what is going on unlike you



GREEK SAID:
>>Sorry to ruin your dreams but Turkey can’t invade Greece because that would be the end of your country should I remind you the economic situation of Turkey? it will collapse in a day <<

I SAY:
See you have serious logic flaws. It may be an economic disaster AFTER an invasion as a result of the PAST war. So invasion success is not affected by the following ecenomic trouble. Anyways, and if the Turkish ecenomy were to collapse after a war, then it would be more terrible for you too. There's a saying: "Be scared of the one who has nothing left to lose". You know what I mean?


Ok so according to your logical thought;;;;; Turkey wouldn’t mind to collapse as long as it conquers Greece!!!!!!!!!( you r so sure about that xe xe). Once again you proved your reasoning. And why do Greece would have MORE terrible economic difficulties than Turkey?????? Is it because Turkey has already a stronger economy?? Wake up!!!
I know what you mean that’s why I’m telling you to read my previous posts!!!!!!



GREEK SAID:
>>This is not what I’m hearing man!! The Islamic party is in power and that’s the strongest prove that Kemalism is no longer accepted by the vast majority of the Turkish people
<<

I SAY:

Haha you wish.

AKP got only 33% of total votes, not the majority of the voters. And AKP got that many votes by disassociating itself from its "Islamic party" history, and declaring itself as a "Conservative Party". At least the party leader said so before elections. So even most of that 33% voted for a conservative party, not an islamic party. What does "Islamic party" means anyways? Did you ever hear a term like "Christianic Party"?

So my friend, your allegation is disproved twice.

And I must remind you that being religious or conservative or whatever is not equal to anti-Kemalism.


You remind me of a person whose house is on fire and his trying to persuade his girlfriend to go out on a date!!!!! That would be very convenient for you wouldn’t it be?
Now BOO: what about Mr. Erbakan? He wasn’t moderate and he was about to take the presidency when the parliament-army or whoever cut him out of the elections by declaring his ISLAMIC party illegal!!!!!! That was done by the army who represents Kemalism and according to you has nothing against Islamists!!!! Nice!!!!
You must be the only Turk not familiar with the fight between the generals representing the army which in turn represents the Kemalism and Mr. Erdogan who is ISLAMIC!!!!!!!! Due to this fight, the Turkish PM entered the Guinness world record as the PM who has changed his mind about Cyprus that often!!!!
Listen to learn cause it seems to me that I know better:
Islamic means to be able to worship you religion freely without restrictions meaning that you are free to wear the religious scarves whenever and wherever you wish. Kemalism clearly forbids that and I wonder why??????
Islamic means to be able to express your views about the society freely but Kemalsim restricts the above: the fights at the Turkish universities between those group of people are really a sad image!!!!
Islamic as declared by Mr.Erdogan himself means to care about the people and minorities and try to improve the standard of livings but Kemalism denies that cause ‘Turkey is one’ and ‘the army is above all, it guarantees the unity of our great nation;; ‘ and these kind of bull….


Yes I have heard of a Christian party I think it is in Germany although I don’t know what it represents any other inquiry you may have???

This is the biggest problem from Turkey: Kemalism is under questioning these days by the same people who used to accept it as the only truth……but you can keep dreaming that Conservatism, Islamism or whatever is equal to Kemalism!!!!!

[kotu_kedi]

pufff, this is boring..

>>They seem to ignore or somehow someway forget that ( I’m going to repeat myself unfortunately here) that it is Turkey that threatens Greece with a war ( casus beli ) and not the other way around!!!! It is Turkey that claims Greek territories ( Trace, even several of the Greek islands!!!!!) and not the other way around!!!! <<

Be specific. What exactly are you talking about?

>>It is Turkey that claims Greek territories ( Trace, even several of the Greek islands!!!!!) and not the other way around!!!!<<

And it was Greek military dictatorship and Greek Cypriots committing a genocide against Turks in Cyprus. I will not get into the details of this because I don't want to further ashame you.

And Resolution 2658/79 taken by the Athens Supreme Court of Appeals on 21 March 1979, stipulates: "The intervention of Turkey, which is one of the guarantors within the scope of Zurich and London Treaties, into Cyprus is legal. The Greek officers, against whom a case was opened, have the major responsibility."


There's a reason that we are there. What shall we do. ul out and let the genocide start again?

>>!!!!! It is Turkey that constantly and on a daily basis violates the Greek air space and not the other way around!!!!!! Etc <<

Haha that's the biggest BS. Greece thikns that CIVIL aviation control zones (Athens FIR) determine her airspace sovereignity. Greece is forgetting the fact that civil aviation control zones include international airspace too.

>>Ok so according to your logical thought;;;;; Turkey wouldn’t mind to collapse as long as it conquers Greece!!!!!!!!!( you r so sure about that xe...<<

I didn't say that. The questin was whether the invasion can or cannot succeed. You're twisting my logic .

>>And why do Greece would have MORE terrible economic difficulties than Turkey?????? <<

Not MORE terrible economic difficulties. Apperantly you didn't get the point. I repeat : One who has nothing left to lose is very dangerous, and it can do terrible things to his enemies since things cannot be worse anyways.


>>Now BOO: what about Mr. Erbakan? He wasn’t moderate and he was about to take the presidency when the parliament-army or whoever cut him out of the elections by declaring his ISLAMIC party illegal!!!!!! That was done by the army who represents Kemalism and according to you has nothing against Islamists!!!! Nice!!!! <<

Haha, you don't know a thing my friend. Erbakan went to EHRC to whine about why his party is closed. And the EHRC made the same decision as Turkish constituional court made: He and his party is illegal since its actions are targeting the democratic regime.

Do some research and come back my boy.

>>Islamic means to be able to worship you religion freely without restrictions meaning that you are free to wear the religious scarves whenever and wherever you wish. Kemalism clearly forbids that and I wonder why?????? <<

Forbidden? Really? You can wear whatever you want anywhere you want my friend. Kemalism is not a law, it cannot forbid anything.

Mayeb you are talkign about why women cannot wear headscarves in government offices. It's simple, some offices have a dress code policy, and you simply have to folow it. If you don't like it, don't work there.

>>Islamic means to be able to express your views about the society freely but Kemalsim restricts the above: the fights at the Turkish universities between those group of people are really a sad image!!!! <<

Fights? Really?

Something that you may wanna remember. I don't mean to insult in anyway, just a suggestion:

You know very little, but you speak very loud. Keep the balance between those two.

...