If you were the prime minister of Turkey

[belgian]

What would you do if you were the prime minister of Turkey to improve human rights in this country? I believe Swedish system is the best in Europe concerning human rights even though the health system can be improved. I think it would be helpful to share your ideas when you put yourself in the shoes of a politician of a muslim country who claims herself as candidate to European Union.

[bosse_s]

Well, if Turkey claims to be a democracy then the first thing would be to give the kurds equal rights, I guess? To get rid of the death penalty would be the second, I guess?

[Thundergod]

Originally posted by bosse_s
Well, if Turkey claims to be a democracy then the first thing would be to give the kurds equal rights, I guess? To get rid of the death penalty would be the second, I guess?

Since when does a country have to abolish the death penalty to be counted as a democracy? And a primeminister cant do much without having the approval of the parliament.


//Micke

[bosse_s]

The death penalty DO have do to with democracy in this matter. Obviously, it is foremost a question of human rights issue. If you look at the European convention of Human Rights and the members of the European council, you'll soon find out that keeping the death penalty will NOT help Turkey in this matter. To become a member of the EU, the charter has to be ratified. Simple politics.

[thule]

If the death penalty is a crime against human rights is a matter of opinion and interpretation. If the majority of the people in a democratic country wants to have the death penalty as a punishment for certain crimes, it doesn't make that country any less democratic.


/Alex

[bosse_s]

I agree with you Alex. But the death penatly in this matter is a question of wheter or not Turkey has a chance of getting closer (and in) to the EU. Like it or not.

If Turkey keeps the death penalty, their chance of getting in to the (democratic organisation) EU is close to none. Since the European council is a major democratic institution and safeguard in Europe, the issue about the human rights (incl. the death penalty) cannot be kept away from the issue of democracy.

The question of what can help Turkey getting closer to EU is definitely one of the human rights situation.

[Edited by bosse_s on 17th August 2001 at 13:31]

[thule]

Seems a bit like the concept of democracy is becoming a concept where all values are already predetermined. Like saying Wasn't it Henry Ford who once in an ironic way said "You may choose whatever color you want for your car, as long as you choose black."

/Alex

[bosse_s]

Well, but the European charter is based upon a thought of uniting a common view upon Human Rights, and the problem is that Turkey's does not fit into it (yet). I think most european (not only EU) countries has ratified it.

Why would it be wrong to say that the european community (or council) does not want members that are violating our view upon Human Rights?! If Turkey does not want to get into the EU, well then they may keep their death penalty. Any political community is based on some common ground so why have a community if not able to have common grounds?

Isn't democracy all about values? I mean, just think about all the wars that has been started to make other "evil nations" democratic!?

[thule]

That's a good example why the EU in many ways is a bad idea. Suppose somewhere down the road a member country wishes to implement a law (in accordance with the majority of it's people) but that law clashes with already predetermined EU values. Such a thing could develop into a serious conflict.

/Alex

[bosse_s]

Yeah, that could (would) be a problem. But if we go back to the original posting, what would you think would be right way for Turkey to get closer to the EU?

After all, this is not a discussion about the death penalty, but what Turkey would/could do to get closer to the EU.

[thule]

I suppose Turkey will have to abide by standars set by EU in order to join. But I also believe that there should be plenty of room for debate and manuvering so that other values then the ones already decided can see the light so to speak.


/Alex

[belgian]

Nice discussion concerning the future of European Union constitution. But when we come back to the original question
I can only see "to give the kurds equal rights and to get rid of the death penalty"
These are valuable propositions and to the best of my knowledge, Turkish government is actually discussing about these topics as no death penalty had been executed in Turkey since nearly 20 years.
No other propositions?

[Milou_7]

I dont think Turkey needs EU. Sweden did and it didn't bring anything but a headache, right??
You can not even prepare your own surstromming which you did for hundreds years without them telling you to do it in a different way. There is no one satisfied soul in Sweden who is happy with EU, if there is, they are just fooling themselves.
There is a huge difference between United States of America and United States of Europe and it wont ever work!

I hope Turks will soon realize they are better off being a member of EU.

[bosse_s]

Hi Belgian. I agree, there must be other important things too. I just came up with the two things that I think would be most important (not being an expert in this matter). It would be nice to see some other suggestions or advice, why don't you give some?

The Turks gave after for EU-preasure and did not sentence Öcalan to death, for example. So, they are not really using the death penalty. So, it might be a minor problem. But the question about the Kurds must be critical, must it not?

Milou7, I think it is a huge difference between Sweden and Turkey in this matter! I agree that we in Sweden do not need EU in many aspects, but Turkey is both "the Orient" and Europe and they seem to want to get closer to Europe (not only into the EU). There are a lot of historical windings in Turkeys relation to Europe. Sweden will be a part of Europe, EU or not. For Turkey, I think the question is also about belonging to something, to be accepted and identified in a European context perhaps?

[belgian]

Hi Milou, I think that I might have a suggestion for you. The Swedish health system really needs to be improved. My ex-girlfriend was a 26 year old Swedish girl from Jarfalla. She had terrible abdominal pain and had been hospitalized twice. No medical report was available concerning the blood tests or medical exams she had been submitted to. In Belgium doctors had to send a detailed medical record to the family doctor even if they only examine the patient. If you fail to do that, you will lose your licence and may be sentenced to pay for damages(I'm a doctor I know what I'm talking about)
Unfortunately, we were seeing each other rarely and seldom could get out of my house when she was in Belgium. She finally got blood out of her anus and I took contact with a gastroenterologist from Karolinska Insitute. He agreed on my diagnostic and agreed rapidly to perform a colonoscopy to visualise the interior of the intestines to see the source of bleeding. The only problem was that she had to be send by a general practitioner to the Univerzsity hospital. The young GP refused to read the report of the university professor and gave her an appointment in 7 days just to try himself to perform an exam himself with a rigid tube. He was unsuccessfull and after provoking serious pain his nurse stopped him and finally agreed to send her after 2 more weeks. Finally she got the exam after 3 weeks of bleeding period in another hospital and she even couldn't get the name of the doctor who performed the exam. My greatest sin was not being on her side during these difficult days. Anyway in Belgium you are free to chose your doctor and you can even go to a specialist in the university hospital by yourself and the security system pays for it. I don't tell this to offend you but because you deserve much better of that by paying so high taxes.