We in Europe Question America and Isreal's weapons of mass Destruction.

[DruidSmith]

Mommy! He hit me back first! Waah!

Kid, you're getting the keyboard sticky with ice cream. Here are some crayons. Don't you have some coloring to do?

[bosse_s]

Druid, my interest just died. Degrading to ironic comments instead of sticking to the argumentation just made your attitude suck in my opinion.

The U.S isn't to blame for everything. But it is kinda darn hard from my perspective to get what your government whant the world to perceive it as. The peace-dove, the warmongler, the terrorist fighter??? The "drop UN" and join us for freedom and prosperity? The American dream? The American what? Did the world dress America in all those shapes? If, then it does sound like a nation who's not strong enough to create its own personality.

Drop the bull. The spirit of America lives in its people, but the power of America lives a life on its own and blurres the picture... You tell me what you want America to be perceived as, then ask your self if your government is helping you to get there.

[disillusioned]

You know what Artichoke, I look forward to the day when I can debate that with you, but unfortunately what you say is true. I have always had an ideological view of the nobility of the american cause.That is what I was taught as a child and that was what I truly wished to believe. The reality is something completely different, and that is heartbreaking. Most of the people I know find it simply too painful to look at our country in anything but glowing colors, they are intelligent enough to know something is awry but are afraid to look any deeper.

That's how I used to be because that's what I was taught. I always had an excuse for every bad thing the govt. did. I never would admit to the bad it's done. I think that's human nature. No one ever wants to admit that their country, their people, their group, etc.; are wrong. I always wanted to believe that the u.s. was the greatest country on Earth. But then I met people from other countries and cultures, traveled to other places and learned other viewpoints and realised it didn't match with what i'd always been told. So I had to start admitting that there are things very wrong with what this country is doing. And i've decided that the people that are always making excuses for the wrong the govt. does are enablers and are contributing to the problem whether they're aware of it or not. I just hope one day this country will have a better government that people truly can be proud of and never have to make excuses for whether i'm still living here or not.

[DruidSmith]

Bosse_s, you are right, it is wrong of me to respond to some of the juvenile BS flying around in this thread in kind, and I apologize. Let us get back to a serious discussion.

YOU say what I want as an american, my mission in the world is to be perceived as is "peace-dove, the warmongler, the terrorist fighter??? The "drop UN" and join us for freedom and prosperity? The American dream..."

_I_, however did not say or attempt to promote any of those things. This is precisely my point. The average american is NOT going out and creating this image. The "perception" of the US by the world is not a single created thing foisted on people by a PR firm or ad agency. The idea of what the average american is all about, the wholesome "mom, apple pie and chevrolet" type of stuff that generations of Americans have grown up on is NOT being promoted by our government.

The "image" is instead a composite reaction to the actions of what is actually a minority segment of the US that has a majority segment of influence abroad- corporations, politicians, the military and intelligence community, Hollywood, the record industry, product marketing and the like. Thus, by nature it is a very skewed and schizophrenic thing that paints an exaggerated and artificial picture of what the US is all about. The US is generally more active in those arenas than any other country. Add to this that bad news spreads faster than good news, and voila, you have this horrible perception of what the US is supposedly all about.

Yet many people DO naievely buy into this BS and it contributes to the same stereotyping of Americans and the US as racism and other crimes of hatred.

And THAT is a "sucky attitude".

[bosse_s]

Ok Druid, if you can shift side and enjoy my comfy chair. Turn on the telli, and you'll notice what the image of America turns up to be:

75% violent movies
10% soap operas
10% "Riki Lake" kinda stuff
5% Jackass kinda stuff

We are being so filled with the crap, day in and day out. Since the U.S have no large and globally spread media that is not commercialized and poupularized, this is what the average citizen outside of the U.S gets. Now, I do know that there are people like you, and that there is more to America than meets the eye. But the picture of America, that picture that most people in this world sees, is not what you are talking about.

That is why I think it is a shame that your goverment just enhances reinforces the negative side.

The American media, mainstreamed to its full, is definitely a part of the problem you are talking about. There is no commercialism in giving us the picture you are talking about. And since everything (seems to be?) about selling stuff (including news) we get what sells: Sex, drugs and rock-n-roll.



I'd like to turn on the telli and see some serious American culture (not violence, not Al Green) being given. Not chewing gum commercials, but real people and real life.

[DruidSmith]

It is frightening to think that people outside the US are also paying good money to watch that mindless garbage on American TV also.

[bosse_s]

Well, that is how our market culture works. It is just the way it works - popculture rules. And the U.S producs a lot of it.

So, I am not blaiming people. But at least my country still have public founded media services (radio, tv) that are national and produces the cultural/historical/documentary program that are may not be produced in commercialized companies. Fact is, I think this is an important need in a commericialized world for cultural integrity and (a certain amount of, at least) news integrity.

I can't tell what's wrong, but there is obviously cheaper to buy crappy, violent action films from the U.S than it is to produce film on it's on. It is like McDonald's really, you can't blame people for choosing an ok alternative, that is much cheaper than most others. Problem is, that (as we say in Sweden) "all winds blows from the U.S" and this may enhance the biased (?) picture of America that we are receiving.

This may sound socialistic (and maybe it is), but I do think there need to be a balance between pop culture (commercialism) and interest based upon other values. If not, you can't blame people in this world to see what they do see in America. Because you've got no balance.

Originally posted by bosse_s

I'd like to turn on the telli and see some serious American culture (not violence, not Al Green) being given. Not chewing gum commercials, but real people and real life.

But Al Green is part of real American culture.

[Brandton]

I live in Washington state. We also "question" the United States involvment in any type of war.
The PEOPLE of America do not support our governments actions and are being pushed closer and closer to class war.
In the mean time, please try not to blame all Americans because most of us don't come from Texas or the surronding region.
Thanks
Brandton

[Brandton]

.

[bosse_s]

Hi Brandton and welcome to the boards. You don´t have to worry, there is no reason to generalize about Americans. Things might to me be weird at the political and administrative levels in the States, but I don´t confuse that with real peoople.

I hope that you´ll stick around the boards!

[janyn]

Hi, Borris and Tisucre,

First of all, Americans are on Israel's side for the simple fact that America is dominated by Christians and Conservative people. It's funny how the media twist some of its stories. Israel's neighbors have always trained their people even kids to hate Israel, even sending suicide bombers to kill Israeli Children in school buses -------- and you know the rest of the story. I trust, I don't have to repeat it to you again and again. However, when Israel starts to retaliate, it's big deal for the world, for the naitions and media. Hmmmm.... Isn't it something? About their weapons. Well, do you know that Syria (Damascus before) have all it's missiles faced in Israel? I'm surprised Israel didn't bomb them and took over! I'm surprised that the U.S.A. didn't help gaza the way it did Iraq.

There's a saying that says " don't tease your brother if you aren't ready to accept his anger".

Before we poing our finger to Israel and and U.S.A. let us study history first. When the Palestinians lived in other Arab countries, they were always driven out because they don't know how to live in peace with other communities. Now, they are in Israeli land because that's the only place where they can go right now. If somebody will comment on Israel, It should be positive and a big thank you for what they did.

[Marmaduke]

Originally posted by janyn
Hi, Borris and Tisucre,

Before we poing our finger to Israel and and U.S.A. let us study history first. When the Palestinians lived in other Arab countries, they were always driven out because they don't know how to live in peace with other communities. Now, they are in Israeli land because that's the only place where they can go right now. If somebody will comment on Israel, It should be positive and a big thank you for what they did.

There is also a saying 'whereof you cannot speak, thereof one must be silent' and it applies to people that tell others to learn from history and then demonstrate their ignorance of the subject themselves as you have done here.

Firstly your inaccurate statement that 'When Palestinians lived in other Arab countries'. What other Arab countries and when ? I am getting used to your wild claims that you are unable to substantiate- you did the same thing in religion where you also seem to like to demonstrate your ignorance. When Israel was founded in 1948, they drove over 700,000 Palestinians from their homeland- they were not 'kicked out' from other Arab countries because they could not live in peace as you so falsely state here. Your claim is not even constistent with the rest of your text. You start my mentioning that Syria have their missiles pointed at Isreal (the obvious distinction which you fail to recognise is that they are not nuclear weapons which breach the same UN resolution 687 and you use to justify the US attack on Iraq) and then say it was the Palestinians who could not live in peace and were evicted from other Arab states. Tell me please whan ws this mass exodus, are have your got your religions confused, like so much else here ?

And just why should we thank Israel 'for what they did'- displace 700,000 people, refuse them compnesation and the right of return, kill 4 times as many civilians as the suicide bombers have managed ? Yeah...thanks Israel. I guess we can thank Sharon for his complete unwillingness to negotiate the one good chance of peace there might be at the moment (the Geneva accords) and continue to illegaly occupy further Palestinian land.

No wonder they have the support of Americans- it is not just because many Americans are Christian or Rightwing, it is because many have such a vapid understanding of history they claim of others. Stick to your fairy tale Creationism thread, it's a subject you know marginally more about than the Israel-Palestine conflict- and that's precious little. Dude.

[janyn]

[quote]Originally posted by Jasperthecat

There is also a saying 'whereof you cannot speak, thereof one must be silent' and it applies to people that tell others to learn from history and then demonstrate their ignorance of the subject themselves as you have done here.

Firstly your inaccurate statement that 'When Palestinians lived in other Arab countries'. What other Arab countries and when ? I am getting used to your wild claims that you are unable to substantiate- you did the same thing in religion where you also seem to like to demonstrate your ignorance. When Israel was founded in 1948, they drove over 700,000 Palestinians from their homeland- they were not 'kicked out' from other Arab countries because they could not live in peace as you so falsely state here. Your claim is not even constistent with the rest of your text. You start my mentioning that Syria have their missiles pointed at Isreal (the obvious distinction which you fail to recognise is that they are not nuclear weapons which breach the same UN resolution 687 and you use to justify the US attack on Iraq) and then say it was the Palestinians who could not live in peace and were evicted from other Arab states. Tell me please whan ws this mass exodus, are have your got your religions confused, like so much else here ?



Hey, Jasper, yah cool? You didn't know that the palestinians were kicked out from other countries before? Try checking the history from 17th to 18th century which am sure will be a big help.

Secondly, I am not a right-winged American. I am far from white in terms of skin and blood. But, this I know, I speak of the truth based on facts.

And hey, Jasper, Saddam is long due. He would have been ousted for power after he tried to invade Iran. Maybe, you wanna twist this and say that Saddam is a good man but records will show what he dide to his own man. Did you know that he even used chemical weapon to his own people? That's sick, isn't it. Well, if you won't agree with me, I can't help it. After all, I am not as blood thirsty as you are.

Have a nice day.