We in Europe Question America and Isreal's weapons of mass Destruction.

[Marmaduke]

[quote]Originally posted by janyn

Originally posted by Jasperthecat

Confusion seems to becoming a trade mark of your posts here lets go through this slowly shall we:

You didn't know that the palestinians were kicked out from other countries before? Try checking the history from 17th to 18th century which am sure will be a big help.

It might assist you if you could actually support your claims here, but no, I suspect that would be too much to expect.

From the begining of the 16th Cetury until 1840 (and beyond), Palestine formed part of the Ottoman Empire as did much of the Middle East and as such there was common migration between the various parts of its control. Thus to say, as you do, that they were 'kicked out of other countries (yet cannot name any or any exact period when this was supposed to occur) as meaningless as the whole region formed part of the Ottoman Empire- a distinction you seem to remain ignorant of. If they were kicked out of other ****ries under Ottoman rule- why did they go to Palestine that formed part of the same ? Logic here anyone ?

By this extention, would this then not apply to the Jews who were also driven from the region- or do you only bring them up when it supports some spurious part of your argument ?

But there's more of this spectulative inaccurcy:

And hey, Jasper, Saddam is long due. He would have been ousted for power after he tried to invade Iran.

And why was he not ? Because it was in Western interests that he fight a long, futile and bloody war against them. This was no doubt why the axis of the willing including the US, the UK, France, Germany and China (among others) were so willing to arm him, in fact Iraq was one of the biggest recipients of arms from the UK in the 1980s. Care to answer me why he wasn't tried now ? Oh yes..most of the 'willing' held UN vetos.

Maybe, you wanna twist this and say that Saddam is a good man but records will show what he dide to his own man. Did you know that he even used chemical weapon to his own people? That's sick, isn't it.

Why would I do that ? What do you base this accusation on- the fact that I pointed out the double standards that are being applied in the Middle East- that means I must de facto support Saddam ? You have a tenuous grasp on reality if this is what you actully do think. I did in fact know Saddam gassed his own people- I also hapen to know this was with equipment we provided- and that shortly after the gasing of the Kurds, my own self rightuous government granted him a further £340 Million in expoer guarantees. Perhaps you could explain why when this attrocity was brought to public attention- the matter was promtply dismissed and a US government enquiry (subsequently debunked) blamed this on Iran and refused to take any further action ?

Well, if you won't agree with me, I can't help it. After all, I am not as blood thirsty as you are.

I'm devistated....mind if I go an slaughter a few more Kurdish babies now, or do you still have something worth reading to write ? Sorry...killing is a full time job you know, can't waste it any further on pathetic ill informed and frankly stupid statements like this.


Have a nice day too

[janyn]

I hear one side of this issue being accepted, and the other being called "hatred". I want to ask you, any of you.. if you keep up with current events? Do you recall the peace treaty that Israel signed with Palestine? How many homicide bombings did Israel suck up before they retaliated? For that matter, go back and look at all the peace treaties signed by the 2 sides, and i ask you, who broke the peace? I do agree with this, children have suffered on both sides and never is that acceptable.
But the difference is, Palestine targets children. Israel targets legitimate military targets and sometimes innocent people die. That is unfortunate. It really is. I dont down play it. It is very much unnacceptable, but it is Palestines inability and unwillingness to police their own territory that causes a lot of the turmoil. Then the job of policing the territory is laid upon the Israeli army.
Whenever you have an army policing a city, it's like trying to crack an egg with a sledge hammer. Simply put, soldiers are not police officers. It's the problem in Iraq right now. You have men who are trained to kill,
policing a country. It just doesnt work. Now i know Jasper the Cat will dissagree with me, and thats fine, but i just say try to remember there is always 2 sides to every issue, and just because people dont agree with you, doesnt make them hateful,recentful, closeminded, bigots,or ignorant. And as far as America's alliance with israel, its a good thing because they are the only ones who are giving any checks and balances to this issue.
And to that i say "God bless America".

[Marmaduke]

Janyn, please help me be a better person and point out just where in my over 5,000 posts I have defended the suicide bombers on Palestine will you- I really want to become a self rightuous ill informed fool like you.

Perhaps, if you care to take the time, you might like to take the time to check the web sites that appear beneath my signature, you see two are Isareali peace organisations- and you will see further, they will detail just how nice my Sharon and some (though not all) of the wonderful Isreali governments have really been.

Then answer me one simple question: The Palestinian suicide bombers target civilians right ? The how come the IDF have killed four times as many children (and people in total) than the suicide bombers have ? I have never defended the actions of such people, though I advocate a deeper understanding of their plight, but it might help if you took the time to educate yourself about the issues rather than write more and more ill informed rubbish, that only shows how little you actually understand.

If you were referring to Oslo as the peace treaty- then I suggest you read about what actually took place. It's evident you don't know anything about it, and unlike you, I can (and have) more than supported what went on both then and after.

Peace will stand a better chance once people like you gain an understanding rather than blindly supporting and administration that condems one country for breaching international law, while having used its veto successively to defend another that continues to this day to breach international law and does nothing. Yes, God bless the America you fir into...a bunch of ignorant hypocrits lecturing the world on what to do when you cannot even practice it yourself. I bet your proud of yourself.

[thisdude]

hi all,
i read your reply janyn,,and then i read yours jasper. can you tell me where she said you defended homicide bombersjasper? because i didnt see it.

are you really a moderator on this site jasper? because if you are, you really discredit this site. you are so blatantly slanted left it isnt funny. 2 obvious ways to tell a liberal 1. they never let facts get in the way of their oppinion, and 2. they always attack people when they dissagree with them.
you my friend are a very close minded liberal. how much of an education does janyn need to watch the news, and share that with you? what she was referring to was the road map to peace. that is current events, not in text books yet.
do you recall the 3 homicide bombings that took place before israel decided enough is enough?
and as far as those websites you offered to her, for every pro-palestinian website you find, i will find you a pro-israeli website. all that does is prove what she said in her last reply,, and that is,, there is always 2 sides to every issue.
i cant believe how ignorant people can be,,do you really believe israel is trying to commit genocide? and do you really believe america defends genocide?
here is a famous qoute for you.. im sure youve heard this before,, "the difference between israel and palestine is, israel has the means but not will to destroy palestine, palestine has the will but not the means to destroy israel".

[thisdude]

Originally posted by Niquie
So, before you go off on your altruistic crusade, educate yourself as to what is really happening.

try practicing what you preach. try watching the news sometime, instead of playing online with jasper.



"God Bless America" For what? For being in bed with the worst this World has to offer? For supporting modern-day Hitlers (Hussein) and then turning the tables and trying to colonize Iraq for our own enrichment?

"God Bless America." How rich... [/b]

isnt it funny how hind site is always 20/20? who knew in 1979 that hussein would gas his own people? and who would have ever thought afghanistan would turn on the country that helped them liberate themselves from russia? at least america takes responsibility, and kills the monster when it creates it. no one in america, not our politics, or our people deny the fact that we made a huge mistake in helping iraq in the 80s. but now we are making up for old mistakes. and you really have a twisted view on what is going on in the world.

[janyn]

Amen, Dude!

Sounds like you're hitting and singing the right notes rather than my new friend, Jasper. I like that fact that you base your opinions and reactions on real facts and actual events.

[Marmaduke]

Originally posted by thisdude

isnt it funny how hind site is always 20/20? who knew in 1979 that hussein would gas his own people? and who would have ever thought afghanistan would turn on the country that helped them liberate themselves from russia? at least america takes responsibility, and kills the monster when it creates it. no one in america, not our politics, or our people deny the fact that we made a huge mistake in helping iraq in the 80s. but now we are making up for old mistakes. and you really have a twisted view on what is going on in the world. [/b]

You two certainly do sing from the same hymn sheet- write tune, but wrong hymn.

isnt it funny how hind site is always 20/20? who knew in 1979 that hussein would gas his own people?

Yes, hillarious- actually that was in 1988, not in 1979. In the 1980s- it was Iran he was using chemical weapons against- supplied by the US and UK with intelligence supplied by the CIA (see New York Times passim). I bet it must have come as a complete surprise to them all...fancy that...giving him weapons and the intelligence to use them and what does he do...use them. Amazing.

and who would have ever thought afghanistan would turn on the country that helped them liberate themselves from russia?

You mean the Taliban, that the CIA financed with $3 Billion of military aid ? Most came from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia NOT Afghanistan. You see one reason why the US backed them was because your secretary of state under Carter- Zbigniew Brzezinski said that would 'draw the Russians into the Afghan trap' not that it would 'liberate the Afghan people' he had not the slightest interest in that, he just saw it as bringing and end to Russia. And you see, your president Bush was so concerned about he foreign infiltration of terrorists (formerly funded by Reagan) that he invaded Afghanistan to 'liberate it' from these people. You see, Bush has told us that if you support terrorists, they will act like them- a conclusion Reagan seemed to have avoided coming to when he was...well, funding terrorists.

but now we are making up for old mistakes. and you really have a twisted view on what is going on in the world.

Really...what about Central and Latin America, what about Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Indonesia...can we expect the US to pay reperations to the illegal wars it funded in these countries too ? Just where did Bush say they were wrong to have supported Saddam..do you hear him say they were wrong to have financed the Taliban and al Q'aeda too ? Please show me just where he has said these things, becuase I haven't come across them yet.

I have heard Bush and Blair talk about the killing of the Kurds, but just where in their speaches have they admitted they supplied the technology to do it? Please show me.

I expect Bush has also appologised for the Iran Contra affair too has he (look it up on the internet)...hmmm...might be harder to do given that he's populated his government with half the criminals that were engaged in it.

Good to see you have got none of the facts right here again, but what the heck...it's only other peoples' lives isn't it. Good to see 'Christian' morality is just as corrupt and self serving as it has so often been in the past.

Is there some small chance that between you two you might just manage to get one fact right ? You know, the right dates would be a start, you can then progress to the finer points such as the details of what actually took place on these right dates.Go on, surprise us all.

[janyn]

Originally posted by Niquie
Ah, poor girl. She had to go recruit someone to help her out of the hole she dug for herself.

Jasper (Dude!), leave the poor girl alone with her "theories."

Yeah right, Niquie.

For your information, I never recruited anybody to defend me, thisdude including. I never dig my own hole but rather am trying to defend the truth which most of you tend to deny.

Uptight people that doesn't want to listen and respect other people's opinion shouldn't be here. Hey, don't be like the French! Kidding, on this part.

And you are right. Jasper should leave me alone and stop attacking me personally because it's not ethical to do so.

[Marmaduke]

Funny how they claim not to know each other, yet their IP addresses are so similar...ohh..there I go again.

Janyn, I don't have any issue with you as a person, I think you really do mean well, and wish the best for people. You wrote on another thread that Religion had nothing to fear from Science, and you were right on the money there. I DO have a lot of issues with your posts- and since this is the only way I can know anything about you- tough if you think I am hard. I am sure if I knew you otherwise I would not be so harsh- but this is a message board and not a kindergarden- so that's the way things are.

It is this simple- I don't have an issue with you, and I think it would pobably be hard for anyone to think ill of you- but I can only judge you by your posts- and this is a hard section- we argue hard- but it is not personal. But your arguments woudl be better supported with a little more care to detail- that's only my opinion, but it makes it very easy for people like me to argue with you when you can't get the basics right. Why not present your argument in another thread where it can be discussed in more detail. I will never agree with your position- but it might make matters clearer as to what you do and don't believe.

[thisdude]

actually,
i never said i didnt know janyn,jasper,
i saw some of your replies to her, and they really sounded so atrocious. i dont mean to question your intellect. i think you are a very smart guy. but your knowledge is one sided. you dont have a clue how the other side thinks, or feels,, and personally,i think you dont want to know either. and thats why you attack people who dissagree with your oppinion.
you dont want to know why they believe the way they do.. discussion went out the window a long time ago here on this site,,, this is now a full fledged word war that you started. i read her replies where she was trying really hard to stay away from attacks,, and you would just come after her,, and she's not the only one you do this to here.. try being a little more sensitive to the other side, that is if you want a true "discussion".
and you might be surprised about her intellect as well,, i know her replies sound abit funny at times, but just try to remember, english is her second language. she has a hard time sometimes getting across what she wants to say in english. she speaks 3 languages by the way. just an example to show you she's not stupid.

[thisdude]

"i will never agree with your position" ??????
jasper, that phrase does not belong in a "discussion"..
just showing my point on how this went away from a "discussion" along time ago.

[janyn]

Originally posted by Jasperthecat
Funny how they claim not to know each other, yet their IP addresses are so similar...ohh..there I go again.

Janyn, I don't have any issue with you as a person, I think you really do mean well, and wish the best for people. You wrote on another thread that Religion had nothing to fear from Science, and you were right on the money there. I DO have a lot of issues with your posts- and since this is the only way I can know anything about you- tough if you think I am hard. I am sure if I knew you otherwise I would not be so harsh- but this is a message board and not a kindergarden- so that's the way things are.

About the similar IP addresses, well it so happens that thisdude is staying in the same country I am at right now. We happen to chat every once in awhile.

I never thought of it as that. Most of your attacks were too personal. You are right, this is not a kindergarden but I was taught otherwise. I had been taught how to argue with manners and ethics, and that attacking people discredits your position. I admit, my hands are not clean because I was retaliating but, "It is human nature to push back when pushed".

[Marmaduke]

Originally posted by thisdude
"i will never agree with your position" ??????
jasper, that phrase does not belong in a "discussion"..
just showing my point on how this went away from a "discussion" along time ago.

I have my reasons not to consider the matter further, as I have given it a great deal of consideration in the past- I would be happy to discuss this further on the religion thread if you want to start a thread on this issue, but as this is the 'internation human rights' section, I think it would be better addressed there as this is now going 'off' the main topics of this board.

Anyway, since I now know where you both live- and differences aside (for the moment ) let me welcome you both to this site. It is good to see you join the other discussions here...I don't think we have anyone here from Thailand...so you are the first I think

[janyn]

Originally posted by Jasperthecat
Anyway, since I now know where you both live- and differences aside (for the moment ) let me welcome you both to this site. It is good to see you join the other discussions here...I don't think we have anyone here from Thailand...so you are the first I think [/b]

Hey, Jasper, Thanks for the welcome.
By the way, how did you know where we live? You are full of surprises, eh?

[Marmaduke]

Mr Dude mentioned it elsewhere

Welcome Janyn, drop in for a beer on the open board- I see you have already found it. Things may be a little quiet at the moment with Christmas soon to be here, but things soon pick up