Pacific Body Art

[Owler]

Hello everybody.
I visited Hawaii last year, and intend visiting New Zealand next year. I'm interested in the body art/tattoo's which depict polynesian tribal culture. I have had great difficulty in obtaining info (books, mags etc) so could do with some help. But also, these tattoo's MUST HAVE a definate meaning. I do not want any old celtic / tribal tattoo with no substance.
Also, I do not want to offend any native peoples, of any of the pacific islands, by wearing a mark that could be disrespectful.
Any help with the above would be gratefully accepted.

[Ngeruita]

I would suggest that you don't think about putting a Maori tatoo on you at all, if you wish to be respectful. Seriously how would it be meaningful to you when you have neither blood, family, history or connection to the land, those things which the tatoos represent?

Why not look into your own heritage and find something there. People's cultures aren't a fashion statement.

[Owler]

I understand what you say, however I don't necessarily agree.
I think that it shows the utmost respect to show your feelings towards differant cultures. I have always done this and will continue to do so. My method may be differant to what you may persieve as being correct, but that's what makes us all so unique - our varying ideas.

Owler

[Ngeruita]

>>I understand what you say, however I don't necessarily agree. I think that it shows the utmost respect to show your feelings towards differant cultures. <<

When you are dealing with another culture out of YOUR cultural values it does not show any kind of respect. It shows arrogance. Maori find it extremely disrespectful that non-Maori take Ta Moko as body adornment. It represents ties to FAMILY, to spirituality, to land etc. You can not take something you are not entitled to and show respect. Is a thief respectful? I'm sure he values what he steals - but it is not respect to the owners he's showing when he takes that which does not belong to him. Is it?

>>I have always done this and will continue to do so.<<
That means you're closed minded. And you do what you like regardless the harm you do.

>> My method may be differant to what you may persieve as being correct, but that's what makes us all so unique - our varying ideas.<<

If you wish to do what ever you like with that which belongs to you - fine. I have no quibble. But another's culture is not your property, it's not yours to take. You don't have a say as to what is correct or not. You belong to what people, what country? Do you always have to follow the pattern set by your ancestors; take, take, take??

When you decide to take that which you didn't author, which you don't belong to, which you don't contribute to - and which by taking is a mockery and a show of ignorance..Be quite clear on this: You are in fact acting totally disrespectfully, arrogantly and ignorantly in the eyes of those you are taking from. Please do not suggest therefore you have a concern for being respectful. You do not.

A person can't claim they're a doctor unless they pass the exams - it's wrong. You would respect that I bet. And you would respect those others who earn their honours in the manner that school/society and culture dictates. When a non-Maori doesn't recognise another cultures way's but expects the same of their own. We know this is not respect.

Find your own culture and don't appropriate ours.



[Edited by Ngeruita on 26th July 2002 at 18:14]

[Owler]

Hi there,

You say I have a 'closed mind'. I think your comments show a very narrow view of the world and all the differing cultures. I see you as being the arrogant one, as it appears you think others cannot and should not show a healthy interest in anothers culture.
Do you therefore think that visitors to your beautiful country, are showing disrespect by daring to set foot in a country that is not their own? and treading on lands that they cannot begin to know the history of? or is this ok when it suits!
To me this borders racism, and has no part in the world.

[Ngeruita]

>>You say I have a 'closed mind'. I think your comments show a very narrow view of the world and all the differing cultures.<<

That's a petty argument Owler. You are told you can't have anything you are not entitled to and you are affronted. Respect is that you allow others the right to live their lives without trying to get them to do it your way. Grow up.

>> I see you as being the arrogant one, as it appears you think others cannot and should not show a healthy interest in anothers culture.<<
The word there is "healthy" stealing from other people's culture Owler is not healthy. There are many things that Maori people have introduced to the world to the world's benefit.

Actions of the people of Parihaka in defeating the English's attempt to geneocide the entire Maori race - and their persistent peaceful actions against a corrupt government, the first sit-ins, pacifist action against violence influenced Mahatma Gandhi and then Martin Luther King.

Trench warfare was the design of Maori used in the first World wars - although it was better done by the Maori who defeated odds greater then their own because of the means of deflecting rifle and cannon fodder through trench and fortified Pa design.

The splitting of the Atom was by a Maori: Sir Earnest Rutherford.

Different and powerfully effective ways to reabilitate prisoners.
More powerful ways of educating people so that regardless of race, gender, sex or status people's individual differences are catered too.

There are a lot of things you can take a healthy interest in and learn about. Taking the symbols that belong ONLY to family members and require that you earn them also and qualify to your peers and family - you have absolutely no entitlement to. Maori, young VERY young Owler, is about FAMILY. It's about being authentic - it's about being real.
You can't be real if you make a 'body art' out of that which is sacred to another.

>>Do you therefore think that visitors to your beautiful country, are showing disrespect by daring to set foot in a country that is not their own?<<
Did I say that? No. Don't make a false acusation especially on a written discussion board - it makes you look foolish.

>> and treading on lands that they cannot begin to know the history of? or is this ok when it suits!<<
Did I say that? No, again don't make foolish accusations. No one has said people can not visit we are discussing you wishing to have Ta Moko or Maori tattoo. You are being told it is disrespectful because you asked what was the respectful thing. You were told. I think you wish to LOOK like you are respectful but still wish to have what you want whether it is disrespectful or not.

>>To me this borders racism, and has no part in the world.<<
Racism child, is one who thinks they are superior to another, according to the dictionary. And I find that those who think that way think like you - you want to do whatever you wish with another's culture regardless of how they feel about it and even though that culture is not yours to 'play' around with.

Respect young Owler - is not demanding that minorities play by your rules. When it is their damn right to live their lives as they see fit. If you are in their country you are the guest act like one - not like a pushy intruder, interloper or theif.

Cheers
Kat


[Edited by Ngeruita on 30th July 2002 at 01:48]

[Owler]

Hello Kat.

Well, well, well.
We here find your acidity extremely amusing.
Not only are you arrogant as I said before, but it now appears that you are condescending, patronising and sadly sarcastic - or should that be sacastically sad. I suggest you come down off of your self-built pedestal and take a chill pill.
If I needed a history lesson I would have asked. However, as I tend to live for today and the future, and not grovel in what ancestors may or may not have done - something that none of us can change and which I'm sure even you, with your blinkers, can see that - I have MANY better things to do with my time.
All of these things do NOT include embroiling myself in infantile squabblings with the likes of you.

You may feel an urge to reply with more arrogance etc etc,but this will be my last correspondence with you as I have a tattoo to have applied.

Please enjoy the rest of you somewhat sad existence on this beautiful planet, but please take care as you may find yourself drowning in your own cynicism. Now wouldn't THAT be a shame!

Goodbye, and good luck

Owler.

[Ngeruita]

Hello Owler,

So you didn't like getting a straight answer huh? You got an informed response Owler, grow up. I have not been condescending to you, although I admit I don't suffer fools gladly. There's too many of them.

>>If I needed a history lesson I would have asked.<<
LOL LOL - So much for wanting to actually know about the culture hmmmm? Funny how any real information goes over your head.

>>However, as I tend to live for today and the future, and not grovel in what ancestors may or may not have done - <<
Well you don't have to grovel but not knowing what YOUR ancestors have done is probably why you show the same attitude as they - careless ignorance. See arrogance is not having an understanding on your own culture - it's the presumption you know another culture without bothering to learn. Very young Owler.

>>something that none of us can change and which I'm sure even you, with your blinkers, can see that <<
You change today and the future by knowing your past - so you don't repeat it.

>>- I have MANY better things to do with my time.All of these things do NOT include embroiling myself in infantile squabblings with the likes of you.<<
Yes, you have been infantile in your replies but I put that down to the fact you're probably some school kid. Some are slower than others, that's all. Nothing to be ashamed of expect when you are closed minded as you are.

>You may feel an urge to reply with more arrogance etc etc,but this will be my last correspondence with you as I have a tattoo to have applied.<<
As long as it's not Polynesian I couldn't give a toss. And if it is -it's a sign for Polynesians that you are another wannabe.

>>Please enjoy the rest of you somewhat sad existence on this beautiful planet, but please take care as you may find yourself drowning in your own cynicism. Now wouldn't THAT be a shame!<<

Please show real respect for this beautiful planet by learning where to put your feet next time. And stop squawling when someone spanks your butt for being a silly little chit.
Have a lovely day darlin.