Interest in Politics?

[imported_cher]

G'day Watchmanz!! Thankx for your reply. This is great, just think how much we are all learning. This Mr. Hubbard is a very wise man. Perfect example of free enterprise, and see it works. Why can't others learn from this?? It is because government NEEDS to have it's nose in everything. What a shame. I don't see things changing in the US any time soon either. About the trade tariffs, what a joke. If you really look at it the only ones that benifit from this crap is the government again!!!!!!!! I have tasted US lamb, they can keep it. I would rather pay a little more and have a beautiful leg of lamb with pumpkin and mint sauce. New Zealand lamb is far superior to the US, it's stringy. In the US we are always trying to "PROTECT" or that is what they say, instead of letting people show what they are truly capable of. The creativity and brains of most americans are pushed down because 'BIG BROTHER' has, way to much control. We went from paying 99 cents a pound for NZ lamb to $2.99 a pound, I'm sure the NZ farmers arn't getting this kick back. The tariff is for who???? US lamb is now down to around $1.29 a pound, so you see people who don't know good lamb will go for the cheaper price. The US has a win win situation. keep it going I'm really enjoying this, I get to vent my spleen, with bright people it does my heart gooooood. By the way watchmanz go you have a real name??? later cher

[TZT]

I love Lamb! Tast great!

Anyway, we can return to sweatshop labor as companies just go from one country to another.

America (er the USA) is on the right track lowering taxes as we do not want our rich to leave. I would like to see the lowering at the lower end.

I love our progressive tax system. The bottom 20% pay no taxes due to deductions. The top 20% has seen their income go up 15% but with the decline of unionism the middle people are strugling to stay where they are.

I do have mixed feelings about unions. Not all are crupt. I do not trust big busisness any more than I trust the government. It is sad that our educational system in the USA is so fixated on spelling and grammer and memorization that we have many people who are not knowlegable about economics, politics, or issues. The media sugar coates and is rather very superficial. I think with the internet things may improve but most people still are in the game mode. Or just looking for cyber flings.

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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[TZT]

I should edit that last post but do not want to trash my signature. I always rush to post so I do not get spun off!

Anyway, in Colorado we have good lamb. I have met some that I intend to eat. Advamtage of being a farm boy. Is all of your milk BST free. I've seen some BST free milk in our stores. Congress should have never allowed the product as we already had a milk surplus in this country.

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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[imported_watchmanz]

ZTeam, I hate to disagree with you but I feel I must at this stage. There are two comments you raised above thatI must reply to.
The first comment is where you say the progressive tax system is good but you then admit that the middle class, which is after all where the majority of taxes come from, is struggling. A system which is far fairer is a minimal flat-rate income tax and a user-pays consumption tax. Let me explain how things work in New Zealand. We have a progressive tax system also but I am one of a growing lot of advocates supporting a flat tax system with no exceptions. Let's put it this way, the rich can currently find loopholes anyway and if you raise the rate for the rich, they just avoid it more. So we drop the rate to an acceptable level for everyone, maybe 8%-10% and nobody will bother to avoid it. It also assists the lwer socio-economic groups by reducing their income tax rate from the current rates. The next question is how to replace the income the drop in income tax will cause. After all, a Government should be lean and mean, but it still needs money to function. This is where the user pays consumption tax comes in. In New Zealand we have GST (Goods and Services Tax) of 12.5% and it applies to absolutely everything (not like that stupid Australian proposed tax with more exemptions than valid taxable items). Here is what I would suggest to solve the problem ..... an income tax rate of between 8%, a GST rate applicable to everything of 10% and a financial transactions tax with no exceptions of 0.001% ... if my sources are correct this should generate approximately the same, orperhaps a littl emore, than an income tax rate set at the usual levels of between 20% and 40% of income - mainly because there will automatically be less avoidance, and therfore lower enforcement costs.
The other comment is where you say "Is all of your milk BST free. I've seen some BST free milk in our stores. Congress should have never allowed the product as we already had a milk surplus in this country." Now, I'm not too sure what BST free means but I can almost guarantee that, if it's bad, New Zealand milk is free of it. That sounds a bit over the top but our milk industry is very strong here and has the highest quality standards in the world. What disturbs me was the words "Congress should never have allowed the product as we already have a milk surplus in this country". Not allowing something is restrictive trade practices along the lines of tariffs and is part of the reason you have such a surplus in your market in the first place. If your farmers are creating a glut on the market then it is deliberate and it means your producer boards and suchlike are not monitoring outputs appropriately. It also means farmers will receive a lower return on their investment as a glut keeps prices down. So whatis wrong with anothe rproduct competing with American milk? If the US milk can handle the competition it will prevail. If it can't then competition is a good thing as it highlights the inadequacies.
Thoughts on that lot?


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Watchmanz
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"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[imported_watchmanz]

Hi cher, I can guarantee that even though the price of New Zealand has been artificially inflated by the US Government, it will taste far better than the US equivalent. This is not to put the uS down directly - but NZ lamb tastes better than any other lamb in the world. This is why it is exported everywhere in the world. Enough about lamb quality though ... this is a Political base after all.
What you say about the US Government rings true for most Governments around the world. Sadly, after our recent election it appears NZ has elected a Government that also likes to be in CONTROL of everything. It is the old New World Order scenario .... the Government controls its citizens. Currently in New Zealand, Government has a very hands-off approach to almost all aspects of the economy, and it has worked well. Privatisation has brought about nheard of benefits to the consumer. here is an example for you.
Telecom New Zealand used to be a Government Department. In those days it cost a fortune to have a phone connected, took weeks, you could only use their phones (dial phones) and modems could hardly operate because the old copper wires were pathetic. Now, a decade or so later under private enterprise, New Zealanders have a very low monthly rate for a landline phone (about NZ$30 per month, which is about US$15 or so), the latest touchtone phones with fibre optic cables. Installation has also been contracted out meaning you can get a line hooked up in a maximum of 2 days in major cities. Nowadays NZ'ers have one of the highest rates of cellphone ownership and usage per capita in the western world, and one of the highest internet access rates per capita also. W ehave embraced technology like never before .... why? because it is of an extraordinarily high quality, it is fast and efficient, economically priced and the sales and service is top notch. THAT is what privatisation produces ... and that is why every Government should restrict itself solely to the core functions of a Government, ie: finance, defence, welfare, etc.
By the way, my real name is Kevin (just call me "Kev" though). And yours is .........


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Watchmanz
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"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[TZT]

BST is a naturaly occuring hormone so technically all milk has it; but, in the USA they are adding a synthetic version by injection to the cow to force her to produce more milk. Milk prices go down milk producers produce more as their goal is income not proper supply. The farm industry in America is in a visious cycle. Due to concerns about BST some people are also drinking less milk.

I do not have all the answers but I think a consumtion tax may be good for the environment. I do not think flat is the way to go. Items the poor need or items that all need should be free of tax. Food Clothing that type of things. But TVs, sterios, should be taxed higher. Each item could have a higher tax. Cars with good full efficiency could be taxed much lower than cars that waist full. Perhaps tax a second car higher than the first.

Some people say that if you can teach a bird to say supply and demand you have created another economist.

I think it is more complicated than that. A tax system needs to be fair and the progressive tax system has worked well for the USA.

The main squeze on the middle class is due to the demise of the unions to a large degree. Coke just layed off 6,000 workers. I say we boycott Coke and show them exactly how much they can downlsize. Their quality has gone down hill mainly due to previous layous which lowered the moral of their employees. Their product use to be superior but now the generic is just as good. I say drink the cheap generic and let Coke downlsize out of existance. Actually, a tax on soda pop would be a good idea as it is not really that good. How about a tax on fat? Higher rate on saturate fat of course.

Please note I'm in a bad mood and do not actually agree with this post. Just tossing some thoughts out.

"without freedom their is no responsibility"

I'm woried about the freedoms we are losing in the USA. Our freedom of speach is being eroded by hate laws. I do dispise raceism; but, restricting experssion is not the answer.


[This message has been edited by TheZTeam (edited 29 January 2000).]

[imported_watchmanz]

Hiya Z ... yes your bad mood shone through your post a little bit, but who cares? Everybody's allowed to have emotions, right? Anyway, on to the points you raised.
In New Zealand we do not inject our cows with any artificial hormones etc. There is even a growing force that abhors injecting antibiotics etc, and totally organic farming is increasing every day. In New Zealand we have strict regulation governing what you can, and cannot, put into animals if you wish to sell on the NZ market. The penalties are also very severe if anyone should choose to flout the regulations ... and spot checks are conducted all the time.
I can see what you mean about items the poor need being free of tax. In NZ, to counter the effects of the 10% GST we have a "Community Services Card". If you are a beneficiary or low-income earner you can qualify for this card. It entitles you to huge discounts on medical care, prescriptions and so on ... and even earns cheap cinema tickets on certain days and other benefits. So, instead of keeping everything low and then trying to tax the rich more (which doesn't work), we tax everything highly and then give the needy the necessary rebates (which does work).
Cars with greater fuel efficiency can be taxed less but not in the GST tax. They can earn rebates through the cost of vehicle registration etc (this doesn't happen in NZ at the moment but it's a good idea). I agree that the progressive tax system may seem to have worked in the past for the US - and for other countries too - but the words "in the past" is what is important here. In addition to "working", the progressive tax has also created a whole section of the society that is homeless, destitute or permanently receiving state assistance. This group also has high costs in terms of crime and so on, so the tax system really ends up costing people more through increased costs. A flat tax is naturally fair as everybody is treated equally, rather than the progressive system that penalises you if you are successful ... there's a disincentive to personal improvement if ever I saw one.
Boycotting Coke would not have much effect unfortunately. Their sales are worldwide and, while it might hurt their sales, it wouldn't cripple them. Also, I disagree when you say the others taste just as good .... I cannot drink Pepsi and can always tell the difference. It's crap! <personal belief - sure to raise a storm of protest from "the Pepsi generation">.
Coke may have downsized in the US but in other countries it is expanding. Might this be due to an oppressive taxation system, where they can pay less tax elsewhere they will naturally prefer to operate. That's why I advocate the flat rate and flat consumption rate and financial rate.
Everybody is treated the same so nobody can claim victimsation.

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Watchmanz
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"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[KATEADOPTEDKIWI]

HEY WATCHMANZ..GUESS WHO...FASCINCATING DISCUSSION. THE DETAILS OF ECONOMICS REALLY BORE ME, BUT I'D LIKE TO OFFER SOME THOUGHTS IN GENERAL. FIRST, MY FATHER WAS A UNION BRICKLAYER FOR MANY YEARS...ONCE HE BECAME MANAGEMENT HE REALLY TURNED ON THE UNIONS AS HE SAID THEY KEPT THE COST OF THE JOBS UP AND THE PROFIT DOWN. I ALWAYS TOLD HIM HE CERTAINLY BENEFITTED FROM UNION WHEN HE NEEDED THEM. I THINK THEY HAVE THEIR PLACE AS WORKER'S DO NEED SOME REPRESENTATION, BUT THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALL POWERFUL. ONE THING I AM REALLY INTERESTED IN IS YOUR MEDICAL SYSTEM. DOESN'T NEW ZEALAND HAVE SOCIAL MEDICINE? IF SO HOW DOES IT WORK. I UNDERSTAND IT IS QUITE GOOD.

[imported_watchmanz]

Hiya Kate. Yes, New Zealand does have social medicine - in a way. It is no onger a patch on the true social welfare system it used to be up until the early 80's ... but it still looks after theless fortunate fairly well. If you a low income earner or a beneficiary you receive highly subsidised health care - hospital stays and treatment are free and doctors visits and prescriptions are highly subsidised (if not free). Higher income earners pay a small charge for hospital stays and treatment and the full cost of any doctors visits and prescriptions - although they usually have private medical insurance to offset this. Once upon a time we had free health care for all regardless of circumstances, but that was a huge drain on the state and was one of the reasons we were always in debt and borrowing overseas.
I agree with you about the unions ... they are necessary sometimes to stop employer excesses .... but they become all-powerful and then end up achieving the opposite for the employees than they should.

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Watchmanz
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"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[TZT]

Kevin,

My real name is Shan Brian Ziel. The Z in Z team is for Ziel which means Goal in German. I do include my name on my signature.

We are getting multi issued on this post

BST issues

I think it is inhumane not to treat a sick animal with antibiodics but rotunly giveing antibiodics is a bad practice which can cause drug restances. Giving shots was the one thing I disliked about dairy work.

In Colorado the Dairy Association or CO-OP threatened dairy farmers with legal action if they spoke out against BST.

I'm apposed to BST on economic grounds as it makes no sence to boost production in an industry which already has a surplus. Most individual farmers said no but the corportate farms got their way. Big companies are just as bad as big governments. Our telephone system use to be a monopoly. Now we say it pays to leave
AT & T. At least with government you have checks and balances.

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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[TZT]

It is hard to post coherent post when you keep getting spun off the web.

Anyway back to the Tax issue. I'm comming around on the sales tax issue. I think sales taxes can be somewhat progressive. As you mentioned rebaits for people of modist or megar means. I still do like the progressive tax system. We just need to let people get ahead with out penalizing them. Some lower end people can be messed up with a small raise as they would actually lose income AKA benifits.

I'm a pragmatist and if something works better than what we have I'm all for it.



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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[imported_cher]

How's It Kev? I have been out of the loop for awhile work has been crazzzzzzzzzzzy. Things have calmed down a bit so now I can get back to what I really love to do DEBATE. You made my point if left to private companys things work much better and consumers are not ripped off all the time. The government just has it's nose in to much. I can't waite to see what happens with our elections (Novermber) we will know if we are going to be ok or if we are going to the poor house. If we get another democrat, it's to the poor house we go. I just can't understand why so many people are democrates. They sure as hell don't do anything for our pocketbooks. (except drain them) why is that concept so hard for people to understand? The democrates have always been known for the free hand outs, WORK if you want something don't depend on the government for a hand out. Maybe I'm to old, I never thought so, but the more people I talk to I wonder. Being in my 40's doesn't seem old. What do you think?? Well Kev I will leave you to this rambling, answer if you wish. Cher (by the way, mine is Charis just call me Cher)

[imported_watchmanz]

Hi guys, I have been flat out lately and haven't managed to get on to answer the messages. Sorry about that. Anyway, to launch into the debate(s) here, let's go ....
Taxes ..... any progressive system automatically, through way of design, disadvantages the successful. By penalising those who succeed you automatically encourage people to accept mediocrity. Through a flat system of tax people can be as successful as they wish without being penalised - and without penalising the low income workers either. There is less tax avoidance and tax evasion, so the lower flat rate actually gathers more funds for Government than the higher progressive rate. I believe the reason people are skeptical of it, is because it has not been tried before in Governments. However, do you not pay the same price for your car registration as somebody on twice the income or half the income as you? This is a form of tax, and yet everyone pays the same without complaint ---- a flat tax!
Regards the dairy industry, an organic farm would never refuse to treat an animal with antibiotics if it was sick. However that animal would then have to be removed permanently from the organic farm. No animals are ever mistreated or allowed to suffer - but the milk is not full of chemicals either. 100% natural is New Zealand's image, and preserving this image is extremely important to us.
Cher - you're not old just because you're in your 40's. I turn 36 in a few weeks so, if you're old then so am I ... and I am NOT old!
I would make a prediction on the uS election and predict George W Bush as the next US President ... how does that sound?

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Watchmanz
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"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[skiwix2]

I think Gore will take it. Sadly. But anythings better than whats lurking in there now.

[skiwix2]

No Cher your not old. Im 43, and Im not old.