Interest in Politics?

[imported_watchmanz]

Gore will take it? Another Democrat? He comes across to us (in NZ anyway) as a bit of a buffoon. Surely US voters wouldn't vote for more of the same Democrat nonsense?

------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[TZT]

Hello Again,

I'm not a big Al Gore fan but bafoon? Why not discuss what you dislike about him. Specifically, I dislike him claiming to be an environmentalist. His money is from tobacco. No one who produces something as counter productive as tobacco can claim to be an environmetalist. He also owns alteast one mansion. A true environmentalist would live in a more modest house. People should not be allowed to waist resources just because they are rich. I'm all for freedom but we need a system that taxes the harm done to the environment. Perhaps a polution tax. Tax large houses that kind of thing. If you want more of something subsidize it. If you want less of something tax it.

My income has doubled over the last couple of years and I can tell you that at my present income my tax bite is less of a burden than it was when I was making less. In the USA the working poor are taxed unfairly. The rich should actually have their tax levels raised. My tax level could double and I would still be better off than when I was grossly underemployed. I agree with Busisness Weeks Editorial that we should pay down the debt and then we could have bigger tax cuts later.

In the USA companies are complaining about a labor shourtage then they try to get buy just paying $7 an hour. At $7 an hour the government ends up subsidizing labor. I really do not see how anyone can make a living at less than $10 an hour. Yes most making less than $10 an hour will qualify for aid depending on the number of dependents but the people who dislike government are unfairly harmed by subsidized labor as they do not partake in the subsidies AKA handouts. So basically what I'm saying is we will have to disagree on the progressive tax system versus regressive tax system; however, why don't you try an place yourself in the positon of the less wealty before you advocate a regressive system.



------------------
Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[imported_watchmanz]

First of all, before you say I should try being less wealthy before I advocate a different tax system - I am married with children, I earn just above the average wage and I am continually in debt trying to raise my children as best as I can. My wife works to bring in what money she can so we can sometimes have luxuries. Through all of that we have managed to get to a stage where are we are fairly well-off by the standards of our neighbourhood, and we own a lot of assets. All of this has been done solely through hard work! I have no tertiary education - I am totally a self-made man! I have done all sorts of jobs to support my family including manual labour - so much so that I have wrecked my back, one elbow is shattered and I have Occupational Overuse Syndrome - and I still work upwards of 12 hours per day. I am no rich person and I have not got anything that I haven't worked for.
That you could criticise my argument with a personal attack shows that your argument lacks merit, and you disappoint me.

------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides




[This message has been edited by watchmanz (edited 08 February 2000).]

[imported_watchmanz]

On to Al Gore, his comments previously have given him the status of buffoon over here. If that is not accurate, then he has an inaccurate image over here in New Zealand. Personally, I couldn't care less who wins the US elections, because NZ does not tend to tie itself closely to US policies. I made my preference for Republican on the basis that Republicans are the more right-wing party economically - and I advocate right-wing economic policies (like flat tax rates).
Taxing large houses because they are not "environmental" is not wise, and politically unsustainable. No house is environmental! They all ruin the environment but they are necessary. One is just larger than the other, that's all. What's wrong with living in affluence and comfort if you are rich? I would if I was rich. In life, some people "have" and others "have less" ... that's the way it is, and the way it should be. If everybody lived in the same way, what is there to reward effort and excellence?

------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides




[This message has been edited by watchmanz (edited 08 February 2000).]

[imported_cher]

Zteam, I'm beginning to wonder if you are really a republican???? You sound like a liberal to me?? What's up? Peace Cher

[imported_h_halim]

Dear All,
I've been following this site and found interesting,even in some cases im not 100% sure of my understanding but i'm learning.
So, please allow me to join this site.But first of all, i'd like to thanks once again to Cher who promotes this site.
I have question to Watchmanz as he said about present government of nz. He said new gov. is "spend and hope" gov. What's does it?
Hellen C. is left wing, could you tell me her notable program for the economy?
Thanks.

[imported_cher]

WATCHMANS! WHERE ARE YOU?? I miss our talks. please come back. Cher

Hardi! good to see you here, you will get an education. I will e-mail you tomorrow. Love and Peace Cher

[imported_watchmanz]

Hiya Cher, and welcome to Hardi. I'm back again. I run a BBS as well as work full time and have a family plus motor racing and then I have hobbies and so on, so I've been a tad busy lately. Bit I'm here now.
Hardi, what I meant by "spend and hope" Government when referring to Helen Clark's Government is the typical left-wing policies of increasing social aid and welfare. This is fine in itself, but the money has to come from somewhere and it usually comes from the hard-working taxpayer. The way I see it is my hard earned taxes are being used to pay more to a beneficiary who could go out and get a job. I am not necessarily beneficiary-bashing here either, although there are a hell of a lot of benefit fraudsters in New Zealand. Personally I believe in user pays - you cannot get a benefit from the Government until you have paid a certain number of years of taxes etc - put something in before you take something out. The Labour Government of Helen Clark has some fine points, but this left-wing "help out the bludgers because they're poor" strategy annoys me intensely. I'm not wealthy and yet I work my ass off ... why should someone who doesn't work at all get assistance so they end up earning as much (or in some cases more) than I do? Where's the justice or the incentive in that?

------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides




[This message has been edited by watchmanz (edited 16 February 2000).]

[imported_cher]

Hay Kev! It's great to hear you again I was begining to wonder. I know how life can get in the way of our saving the world!!hahaha. You haven't signed on to current events for a while, I would like your feed back from my last post. I was a battered wife, years ago so this runs close to the bone, although mine was not near as horiffic. Talk to me when you find the time. Later cher

[imported_watchmanz]

Hi Cher, please don't think that because it takes me a while to answer that i don't care. That's not the case at all. If anything I'm trying to back off a little bit in case I dominate all of the discussions and suppress others. Anyway, thanks for lettingme know about Current Affairs - I'll have a look. On the subject of Politics it seems that things are hotting up over in the US with the primaries. What follows after those are finished?

------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[TZT]

I'm a pro labor rebublican or a pro life democrat either way I do not fit into eather party real well. Kind of like Ben Nighthorse Camble or Ronald Regan who both swithced from democrate to republican. I was a big fan of Regan at the time but not everything he did was as great as some would lead you to believe. I've seen to many good jobs replaced by temp workers.

I'm not a big fan of taxes but it seems many are to eager to spend our suposid surplus before it develops. Taxes like houses are necessary and neither should be bigger than necessary. I just get annoyed by people who claim to be environmentalist when they are not. I will not vote for Al Gore. I would much perfer Alan Keys but he will not make the ticket so I'm stuck with the irresponsible tax breaking rebublican. I'm not against lowering taxes later but we need to pay off the debt first. Perhaps save a cut for when one is needed. I also think we should if we are going to lower taxes just raise the standard deduction and give everyone a break and not just a token gester to the lower classes while the rich get richer.

Anyway, Watchmaz, I did not mean to make any personal attacks. Your retoric just did not sound like that of a working man. You know what they say when you assume. Sounds like New Zealand is like the USA the rich take care and the poor are taken care of but the middle end up working their tails off to stay there.

I'm not to concerned if people think I'm liberal or conservative. I would rather be fair. I do disagree with some UNION retoric. Companies like US Air which are losing money should not have to deal with labor disputes. I with it were easer to unionize a company; but, I also wish that the unions had more disernment so as restrictions would not be necessary.

I'm less of a Republican simply because I'm not a 20 year old who actually believes people will do the right things on their own. We need government regulations to protect people form companies which would polute our planet out of it's livibality.

------------------
Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[imported_watchmanz]

Hiya Z - welcome back. Don't worry about our previous disagreement a while back - it happens in Politics. I admit I do not sound like the typical working class man but I am indeed a middle class guy who works hard for his money. I just believe that I should have the freedom to spend my money as I see fit. I have been very poor before and close to destitution, and I have also been very wealthy before. Both extremes were caused by outside events - they just happened. I much prefer the status that is of my own making, ie: middle class working man. The US Presidential race is starting to hot up a bit according to the news reports we are getting here with all of the attention focusing on some guy who beat Bush in a Primary for the Republican ticket. On our homefront, it seems Helen Clark is going from strength to strength at the moment. There has been a huge hue and cry over the massive payouts made to news readers and the Government, as the employer of the TV channel in question, basically sacked the Board Chairperson (I think the diplomatic term is resign but with a lot of pushing behind the scenes). The public was disgusted and Helen Clark acted. For thatI give her credit. It's actually becoming somewhat dangerous as I find myself actually starting to like the woman!


------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides

[imported_cher]

Kev. about the election, your right it is getting HOT! But this is par for the course in america. We always have to make the other guy look really bad. The guy going against Bush is John McCain, he was a former prisoner of war, and he is really mikling that for all it's worth. He admits he's a crook, and the people love it, i don't know where we are going. I will vote for Bush, he is solid. I think many voters think if McCain is letting it all out now that will make him a good president??????????? If he was a crook before what will keep him from being a crook now????? I just don't understand the american people. They hear only what they want to hear, instead of listning to everything. The bottom line Bush will be the best for this country. McCain is older and has been in politics longer but I don't think he has what it will take as president. We will see when the primary in over, I might be forced to vote independent, because I can't with a clear consience vote for McCain. Now for Helen, she was booted out because she is very out spoken, not so much that she is a woman or that she is black. She speaks her mind. Later cher

[imported_cher]

Kev, sorry about the last post, I ment to say Carol, our new ambassador to NZ. cheers cher

[imported_watchmanz]

Thank gawd for that! You had me wondering ... Helen black? No way. Hahaha. Now, Carol is outspoken ... so what's th problem with that? I presume the US accepts that politicians are supposed to have freedom of speech also? Or maybe the "old-white-male-brigade" doesn't like the idea of a young black woman being elected as a representative of the people and having the guts to state an opinion that differs from th usual political rubbish that's bandied about. I believe that people should be accepted for that and encouraged, not ridiculed. With the US Presidential elections I would think that the game of politic goes far beyond what the voter ever gets to see. Every person who even gets as far as to run in the primary has had to do some things that are not entirely honest. I can accept what you say about a past crook being a risky candidate - but when is a person forgiven of their crimes? Beyond all the promises, the hype, the expensive campaign slogans and the like - go with your gut instinct ... it will always be right

------------------
Watchmanz
=========
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom is courage"
- Thucydides