Interest in Politics?

[imported_watchmanz]

This is really strange. Elsewhere in these discussion boards there are tons of messages, with people professing interest in all aspects of New Zealand life and society. And yet here is a discussion board about the most important aspect of any society and it is relatively ignored.
I cannot believe that nobody has any interest in how the Government of New Zealand makes it decisions, how it works, who it is (seeing as how we recently had an election) and so on? Is it apathy or ignorance?

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Watchmanz

[TZT]

I tried to get a tax discussion going on another forum and people got real upset. Religion also gets people upset.

I like to debait and learn. Most people are just happy with their own uninformed opinions. I think syndrome. "I think . . ." Then they display behavior which is contray to thinking. By this statement they think it is okay to have an opinion without supporting it. I can respect anyone who disagrees with me as long as they have a reason. If you disagree state why rather than label me a jack of all trades master of none.

I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. Anyone want to debait taxes? I started a strand on that.



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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[imported_watchmanz]

Hell yes! I'll debate taxes or any other political matter relating to New Zealand. Come to think of it, I'd even debate religion too - hahahaha. I love a good debate.
Anyway, are you in New Zealand? If so, this could be interesting.
Where shall we start? I take the right-wing slot in the debating team

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Watchmanz

[TZT]

I'm in Windsor Colorado USA but always have wanted to go to New Zealand.

Since you are taking the right wing I guess I'll take the wrong wing. Ha Ha.

I'll post something pro union but I need to think about it for a while.



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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html

[TZT]

The average worker benifits more from a strong union than from tax cuts.

In the United States of America I believe union workers make an average of 4,000 more than non union workers. This figure may be for just Colorado as I cannot find the newspaper articale which mentioned that Unions are more benificial than Tax cuts.

This same worker is unlikely to get as much from a tax cut as he gets from Union membership. $4,000 = Union benifit.

Another note is that Unions bring wages up for the non union worker as well because non union shops have to compete for labor.

http://www.epinet.org

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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
<A HREF="http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/s...html</A>



[This message has been edited by TheZTeam (edited 20 January 2000).]

[imported_watchmanz]

You could also take the right-wing if you wished to, and we could discuss theories etc. But left vs right is pretty cool too

[imported_watchmanz]

You could also take the right-wing if you wished to, and we could discuss theories etc. But left vs right is pretty cool too


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Watchmanz

[imported_watchmanz]

On the face of it, I can see why it may appear the worker is getting larger advantages from Union membership than they could expect from tax cuts. However, with full analysis the situation is reversed. The extra $4K obtained from union membership goes directly as a cost to the employer. This means employers must increase their margins on the goods and services. The end result of this is higher costs to the consumer and inflationary pressure, as well as resultant unemployment and interest rate increases. Byaccepting tax cust instead it places more money in the hands of the consumer BUT does not add a cost to the employer. Consequently, those additional pressures are not evident and the consumer/employee can therefore truly enjoy the extra cash they receive.
Let's say a tax cut resulted in a $1K increase for the worker, while the Union membership gave them $4K ..... a $1K with no pressure on the economy is better than an extra $4K with the increased chance of being unemployed and an inflation rate that strips any advantage the $4K gave them in the first place.
In New Zealand, the Employment Contracts Act removed the omnipresence of unions and permitted workers to negotiate their own employment contracts if they chose to do so. Since then, strikes are virtually non-existent, we have a quarterly inflation rate of only 0.2%, unemployment is one of the lowest in the Western World at only 6%, interest rates are at 4-6%, the Government is continuously showing budgetary financial surpluses and the economy is growing at 4% per annum with little or no inflationary pressures. THAT is the way to succeed in an economy.
However, having said all of that, the recent general election has just changed the Government, and the new Government is a "spend and hope" Government, so we will now probably see all of that good work undone.

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Watchmanz

[imported_cher]

Watchmanz: I am new to this site, and find your conversation very interesting. Isn't it a shame when something works, there is always someone there who want's to fix it. I agree whole heartedly with your explination on the unions. They don't alway work for everyone. Making your own contract is the only way to good. And as you said it works. thankx for the information. Later cher

[imported_watchmanz]

Hi there Cher and welcome to the topic. Please feel free to join in. Regarding the information, I think I have the advantage as I live in New Zealand and find it easier to keep up to date with current political affairs etc. However, if you wish to know more about what is happening in NZ politics I can always recommend (as well as here of course) the e-mail conversation group (http://onelist.com/community/PoliticsNZ and http://onelist.com/community/NZPolitics) as well as my webpage which has political links etc ... http://sentinell.homepage.com
However, please feel welcome to contribute here .... what are your political interests? I note you are from Hawaii - is there debate on unions there?

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Watchmanz

[imported_cher]

Watchmanz! Thankx for writing back. Unions in Hawaii, what can I say? Ok you asked for it. The union in Hawaii is so corrupt that it protects no one. The big guys live verrrrrrrrrrrry well! Where did the money come from? Hard working union members who trust the union, sure they are paid better than non-union workers but they also pay for that right. In Hawaii if the dock workers go on strike all hell breaks loose. There is a panic across the islands, the biggest run is on toilet paper. People buy tons, then there is none for those of us that don't panic. The last audit of the dock workers union which includes the hotel workers, airport security, pretty much everything except school teachers showed that the retirement fund for the workers had vanished???????????? Where is the money? My guess is that it is in a swiss bank account in the big mans name. I could be wrong but they haven't come up with a better explenation yet. I haven't always been anti union, in fact my grandparents were officer in the international ladies garment workers union. Believe me it was run with the workers in mind. Hawaii is well known for having a few that benifit and many that don't. New Zealand really has the right idea. Contracts that really work. It's great. You asked what my political intrests were, well I'm a stonch REPUBLICAN, very conservitave. I believe that all able workers should work, and as a society we should take care of those that can't. Welfare is a big deal in Hawaii, people have goten off of an airplane and with in a few hours they have a roof over their heads food stampes and a bundle of cash in their pockets. We are really good to our people that want to live off of the government. They say this is all going to change but I haven't seen my taxes cut yet. My property tax has just about doubled in the last two years, no breaks. I stay angery, there seems to be no end to the hand outs, and someone has to pay for them in walks the hard working tax payer(me). When you live in a demacratic state this is the way the government is run. You asked for it. Later Cher

[imported_watchmanz]

Thanks for the info Cher, it is really informative. Hawaii sounds exactly like New Zealand a few years back. Every time the school holidays started the Railways and the Ferries (between NZ's two major islands) went on strike, and sometimes the airlines as well. Changing over was not easy and most of the people (including myself at the time) opposed such radical change. The result was a massive increase in unemployment as inefficient and sheltered industries collapsed as they were forced to face competition without Government handouts. Our unemployment rate approached 10% at one stage and our dollar was floated (previously fixed with periodic devaluations to control inflation) and the spikes in that sent industries to the wall. The all started in 1987 and by 1989 industries had begun to respond and we were starting to see a more lean and efficient private sector. Then came the Government's turn - massive slashing of Government spending and sales of most Government areas that were deemed to be non-essential - ie: telecommunications, power stations, printing offices, railways, airlines, etc - all sold off to private enterprise. That is still going on to an extent but is basically complete (television and radio are some of the last areas to still beunder Government ownership) and now it is the turn of the welfare state. Benefits have, since 1998, been eroded to the point where they are now subsistence-level only and there is no "fat" .... that way you get no real advantage out of staying on the unemployment benefit. Many still do and the result is an increase in crime but the Government has increased Police numbers as well to counter this.
If I was American I would also be Republican ... individual responsibility and individual freedoms are two big points with me. I hate to see others ripping off the system while the rest of us bust our butts every day to make a decent living. Looks like maybe the NZ Government and the Hawaii State Government need to meet and compare notes, doesn't it?

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Watchmanz

[TZT]

I'm a registered Republican and I feel that unions are a victim of their own success. Everyone has a minimum wage and lots of protections that the unions have wone us American workers.

Union corupton is a bad thing but overall the Unions have improved the quality of life for workers. If labor laws lax which the will not probably happen in the USA then there will be a resergance in Unionism. Anyone working for an hourly wage in the USA owes the Unions a big thank you for all the worker friendly laws that we have.

I think Unions are probably more benificial in countries with weeker labor laws. I'm a member of the Colorado Association of Public Employess and we are prohibited from striking or collective barganing but we have a collective voice in State Government through our contributions $20 to $25 per month I think. I do not have the time to visit with law makers every year. CAPE does that for me. I have personally talked to representatives and was suprized at how accessible they were. Even ones who dissagreed with my positions. I do also disagree with some union positions. I do think COLAS build inflation into the system but we owe having a living wage to the unions.

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Shan "Free Ads Free Links" Ziel
<A HREF="http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/shanziel/FREELINKS.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/s...html</A>



[This message has been edited by TheZTeam (edited 26 January 2000).]

[imported_cher]

Hi Guys! Well I didn't expect to get so much response. I think New Zealand has the might idea. The private sector has long been pushed away in favor of government. The private sector can alway do things at a cheeper rate. But government wins out 9 times out of 10. Don't get me wrong I do think unions have done great things for the american workers, I just think they have out lasted their need. Coruption has over taken so many unions that it is just wrong. I speek of what I know about Hawaii. It's like the unions don't think workers are smart enough to know right from wrong now. We are. I do believe that unions in their infancy, saved us all from being taken advantage of, again I think there job is done. You mentioned you don't have the right to strike or collective bargening, then what do you have?? Things will never go back to the beging we are much to informed for that. If unions are doing such a great job then why is big business going to other countries to get the work done?? I feel if the private sector was given a chance that we would all make a fare wage and the quality of production would go up. Stock options are a great insentive for workers. If you know you own a bit of a company you are going to do your very best for that company, you are the winner. I know it is much cheeper for companies to go to other countries, but if the union didn't want to get into ever industry we have conpanies would use american workers. This is want I think anyway. Later cher

[imported_watchmanz]

Now we really have a conversation going! The power of unions vs the power of individual bargaining. I can see where you both are coming from. I can play Devil's Advocate but that is a bit difficult as you seem to have a side each. It is true that unions have improved the conditions for workers in the past. In fact our newly elected Government's (coalition Government of Alliance/Labour) main party - Labour - was originally formed as a "union party" way back in the old days. However times have also changed and I seriously doubt the effectiveness of collective bargaining and enforced industrial action. As Cher mentioned, we are too informed nowadays to ever permit conditions to return to the sweatshop conditions of the past.
In New Zealand we have a cereal manufacturer by the name of Hubbard Foods. This company has been on NZ's edition of 60 Minutes in the past due to the way it treats it's staff. Every member of the staff, from top to bottom, has input into how the company is run. The owner, Dick Hubbard, shares the profits with his staff. This company is so good it has just secured a multi-million dollar deal to supply then entire range of Tesco stores in Europe with cereal. Hubbards is famous for this approach - one Xmas function saw them all taken to Australia, so I heard! This co-operative approach works --- and raises another of my pet peeves, the removal of all trade tariffs. NZ has very very few tariffs left and even those that exist are being phased out. We recently got slammed by the US for our lamb exports because the US farmers said we threatened their industry. Total bollocks ... the domestic lamb market in the US is negligible but is also heavily protected with tariffs. That decision by Clinton didn't earn the US any brownie points with New Zealanders. Personally, I favour a totally open and free trade economy with no tariffs or barriers whatsoever. The efficient prosper and the inefficient disappear ... the way it should be (the law of the jungle, and the law of business)

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Watchmanz