Have such a big problem with American politics? Read this...

[sven_ak]

Came across this and thought it brought up some interesting points...not that American policy is all great by any means...but this article does bring up some strong ideas...

Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:11:06 -0400

A thoughtfully written piece in one of the most left wing newspapers in the UK Just a word of background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror. This is a notorious left-wing, anti-American daily in the UK. Hard to believe that the Daily Mirror actually published it, but it did.

SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN HATING LIBERALS
Tony Parsons
Daily Mirror
September 11, 2002

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting - the mass
murder of thousands, live on television.

As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up
there with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies
stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that
surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.

Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's
comeuppance (deserves punishment).

Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has
always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud,
too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.

And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are
bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.

A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for
our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon?

And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the
planes was that we recognised them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's
son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for
their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.

The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame
the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11.

Remember, remember.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.
Remember, remember - and realise that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass
the Kleenex.

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
That it didn't is a sign of strength.

American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's
what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's
silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will
have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and
didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most
powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if
America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of
the earth.

The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched
countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the
Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.
But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich,
free, strong, open, optimistic.

Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is
the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved
ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked
planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the
hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire
Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam
Hussein.

Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget. Unfortunately, Liberals in this
country seem to trust Sadam's words more than they do their own president.
Reminds me of those who said Hitler was not a threat, just before WW ll
started.

[allenb]

I can't believe this made it into the liberal British press, but I wish I could personally thank the author.

Allen B.
allenb@bama.ua.edu

[bosse_s]

It is stupid to think that people hate America. People hate American foreign politics. And as long people write stupid things like "liberals hate America", you are looking away from the real problem. Unless you want to put an "=" between U.S foreign policy and what America is about for those who live and breath in the U.S of A.

Apart from this BASIC error in the article, I would say that it is just the sort of patriotic and naive stuff that pisses people off. Just the "pass the Kleenex" thing says it all - if is ok to say that about people being jailed for almost a year without any prosecution started, without the right to a lawyer, and the only accusation yet is that they are soldiers (There are no Al Qaida guys there!)... and some still do not get what is wrong with the picture... Sometimes the U.S government is on the same level as the dictators and terrorists they are fighting.

The U.S government are trying to convince governments in Europe NOT to promise the U.S not to let American citizens be surrended to the International Crime Court set up by the UN. Never. This means that if a guy like that Walker Lind was captured in Germany, the U.S would not accept him being sent of to a "X-ray" camp in Hague, and that the U.S. have given itself the freedom to use military force to "free" American citizens being held by the International Court if it wants to.

What sort of signals are you sendning out to people in countries fighting terrorists for example. "Y'all should obey UN and terrorist should be dealt with, but we - hell no we wouldn't do that ourselves". Now you might be thinking, "well, the U.S does not have terrorists". Mind you, U.S.A is the only country convicted for international state terrorism (Niquaragua). The only problem was that the U.S chose not to accept that judgement. Others will also chose to go this way! Which means that the U.S will have to send off more young men to fight wars against "disobedient" nations in the third world.

Not to give you guys any diesel for your fire - I can hereby officially state that I have both friends and family, that I happen to love a lot, in the U.S. Not even they (!) are stupid enough to confuse my - and sometimes their own - irritation over U.S foreign policy with a hate of Americans in general.

[Edited by bosse_s on 15th October 2002 at 11:12]

[sven_ak]

Slow down boss_s! The article never once said American foreign policy is perfect. Not by any means. Ever single country has its faults. Yes, America preaches one way, but does another. And you are wrong about camp X-Ray. The majority of men there are men that fought against US troops. Even if it was in their own country, they are by far peaceful, loving people. It is wrong to hold them without trial. But this is a new time in the world and they just may have to wait for their time of justice. EVENTUALLY (and hopefully soon) they will see justice in the form of a trial.

What I got out of the article is that the US is so painfully critisized in so many ways. Can you tell me one other country in the history of the world that has gone to war with a country, taken it over OR defeated, built the economy back up, then given the country back to the people again??? (Germany, Austria, Italy, Japan).

This paper is also NOT an American one. So you cannot say it is a patriotic one. It is written by a paper in the U.K.

Yes, yes, yes...America is so incredibly hypocritical in its foreign policy, BUT all this article is suggestion is to look at things a different way. American foreign policy probably has more faults than pros, but instead of bashing everything immediately, I feel things brings to light some positive truths.

[Marmaduke]

I would recommend before you all prostrate yourself before the fawning Tony Parsons, you actually read the man some more. He is nothing than an opportunist trouble maker, and this was not the sort of article he was writing before, and certainly quite different from his own articulations on BBC's 'The Late Show'. I gather this article has done the rounds off the internet (this post is almost identical to many others I have seen).

We should not forget the attrocity of September 11th, it just sickens me that he can stoop to uuse it to manipulate feelings for no other reason than his own ego. The man is a hypocrit. I didn't hear him say this after it happened.

Parsons will use any media opportunity to sound off, often to contradict positions he has made before. Sorry this is not journalism or even comment, it is an attempt just to 'stir the sh!t' which he knew full well he would do in The Daily Mirror, and in which he succeeded. That may have it place, as it should, we all need to be provoked at times, but spare me the sentimental crap here please. He has made this sort of santimonious drivel his trade mark, and with about as much sincerity as he can wring out of his thesaurus.

But, let the man speak for himself shall we ?

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes?

And so hatred breeds more hatred, the murderous attack on innocents leads to the attack on more innocents. The backlash has begun, the hate is inflamed, not helped by the fanatics who rejoice in the carnage in New York. An Afghan mini-cab driver is paralysed after a beating in Twickenham, Middx, an Indian (a Sikh, not a Muslim) is shot dead in Texas. America reports 50 cases of racial assaults on Muslims, mosques are stoned in Scotland.

A plea for understanding, for tolerance, for humanity. A worthy plea, one that is worth making. Nobody wants to see decent Muslims victimised for the crimes of sick madmen. But innocent lives have been violated, and the real tragedy of Black Tuesday is that more innocent lives will be violated before this is over, which will not be in our lifetime. The terrible images of that autumn day will never be forgotten. And television, that banal modern toy, taught us how good and how evil the human race can be.

Tony Parsons: Daily Mirror

Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has
always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud,
too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.

Is that hate understandable? Can we grasp the reason that our own lives could be torn apart if we find ourselves in the wrong place?

I look at all the reasons put forward - the foundation of the state of Israel, the Gulf War casualties that we watched like so many video games, the Iraqi children who have died because of sanctions - and it still baffles me. How can you slaughter the innocent to avenge the innocent? But then I think of the children who died in firestorms in Dresden and Tokyo, and I know that we are all capable of slaughtering the innocent to avenge the innocent. We have done it before. Perhaps we will do it again soon.

Tony Parsons: Daily Mirror


In reading articles written by British writers like Tony Parsons and Christopher Hitchens (who I think needs to revoke his recent American citizenship and just go home), I see a serious unercurrent of contempt for the USA and a condescending, sanctimonious attitude.

Stars and Stripes

[bosse_s]

In what sense am I wrong about Camp X-ray, Sven?

Sure they may have been fighting U.S troops, which is quite obvious since you were fighting in a war against them! Are you trying to convince me that they are being held for this long just to but up evidence that they have been soldiers?

If they are POW's, which they are right!? - then there are international standards. But just like with what I mentioned about the International Court (above) there is an obvious confusion here, that it would be nice to hear your comment about, Sven. To quote Avner Gidron, senior policy adviser at Amnesty International:

"It's ironic, in a way, because any time other countries
have tried to use military tribunals for trying
prisoners, including U.S. prisoners, the U.S. government
has rightly protested and secured fair trials."

You might found interesting reading at http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Amnesty+Camp+X-ray

You don't have to love Bush and his CIA inspired foreign policy to love America. My America is totally different from Bush's. I served my country and Bush was a draft dodger, yet he is held up as a lover of America, please explain this to me! His whole gang is made up of draft dodgers. The point is, they love a comfortable America in which they can take and take and take yet never pay back their country.
American foreign policy is really totally divorced from the American people. Cental America, South east Asia and many other places in the world have been subjected to American sponsered terrorism. Anyone with ambition can look into this. I will say, I agree with our stance against the Soviet Union, we did the world a service there. But imperialism is not excused by anti Communism.
The original post is meaningless in my eyes. Jasper has it right in his comments. We hear such trash all the time. If you love America you will support and defend the constitution of the United States,, Not the imperialist vision of America that Bush and the CIA force upon many decent American people who do not support it.
lightnsv

[sven_ak]

Sorry, I should have qualified what I meant about camp X-Ray. Where I was coming from was the US is in a small, undeclared war in Afganistan. The US doesnt REALLY know who the enemy is. Because of the uniqueness involved, it requires, for the sake of preventing another 9/11, some leaway. Any one of those who fought against the US in Afganistan has been detained at camp X-ray for the safety of establishing some sort of normalcy in Afganistan. This is a new time that has never happened in world history (ie, terrorism at this level) and because there is no "rule book" then it is felt the US should be given some lattitude.

If there are a handful of men at camp X-ray that know the whereabouts of Usama bin Laden, or know of another attack, or will be involved in another attack, the way of finding out is by this route instead of having them running about in the caves of Tora Bora. EVENTUALLY, and again I will say, hopefully very very soon, they will be released to a fair fate with justice. Not to be held without any form of trial, charge, anything. But for now, in my opinion, to figure out what in God's name is happening in this world of terrorism, there isn't much else that can be done until normalcy is achieved.

[bosse_s]

"Even if it was in their own country, they are by far peaceful, loving people" was your original label of the soldiers taken to Camp X-ray. They have been in a war for over 30 years in Afghanistan! I think they are more longing for peace than must of us are. But you where their enemy, just like they where yours. I doubt they would call American soldiers "peace loving people", at least not while being shot at (no matter if the bullets was for a "greater cause").

Nevertheless... I know this is a new situation, but it is also a time to think about the usefulness of the standards that exists and what is acceptable behaviour for democratic and "peaceloving nations" to in a situation like this.

If those guys should be hold as scapegoats for terrorism until the war against terrorism is over, I am pretty sure that they will stay at Camp X-ray until they are dead by old age. Unless there is some evidence shown of their involvement in warcrimes or terrorist activity, the U.S should answer to the world (especially to the non-democratic nations) why it now should not stand by the international standards it have been a part of creating?

Darn, that article pissed me off!

[sven_ak]

boss_s-

You are completely right with regards to their basic human rights. For a short amount of time, the individuals at camp X-ray should be held until the US/world can figure out what is going on. But how long is that? One reason why they are being held in Cuba is because they don't have to abide by US civil rights (being held without a rights to an attorney, etc).

Now, I am unclear as to exactly who is being held. Al-Quieda? Taliban? Ordinary citizens? Does anyone really know? And if it is Al-Quieda, does that mean they knew about terrorist attacks against the west? If they didn't know, how can the US hold them?

I guess I am in the same boat as you. How can the US government steer from human rights and answer to no one? No one seems to be challenging the men held at camp X-ray. But what should the US do with them?

Boss_s...why did the article piss you off so much? I think it does speak a lot of good points. It isn't saying the US is so incredibly right, but it does (in my opinion) show a little bit of reality.

[Marmaduke]

Sorry Sven, but that article is a repugnant piece of cheap sensationalist journalism of the lowest kind.

Let me set the record straight, what took place on September 11th was one of the most appalling acts of terrorism many of us have ever (and I pray, will ever) witness, and in the hands of Parsons, it becomes the vehicle for his brand of 'rocking the boat' effect driven journalism. Perhaps as I have read much of his drivel before and have seen this very same writer rant on and on about the injustices America has committed in Central America and how its all purvasive brand of capitalism is sending us all into spiritual oblivion, I have no time for someone who is just using rabble rousing tactics for nothing more than a cheap effect. This same 'critic' of America's past now brandishes anyone who does the same as a self hating liberal. Well, that's because he did this on late night BBC current affairs programs with other journalists or writers that would have ripped him apart had he said such things then with the same blasse flipantness.

September 11th is now compared to the Jewish Holocaust, or to the mass attocities of Pol Pot. Sorry, those events in history are of a completely different order of magnitude.

Septmeber 11th probably and rightly deserves to be left as its own description. What happened on that day is probably incomparable to any other sigle terrorist event, but it does not compare to the elmination of Millions of people simply becuse they were Jewish. The comparison is obscene.

'Self Hating Liberal'- isn't this rather akin to the 'Self Hating Jew' ie: any one that is Jewish and is critical of Israel- I wonder if Parsons would like the term reflected back on him next time he (as he frequently has) criticises Israel.

The deaths of the Afghan wedding party are dismissed as what 'colateral damage' oh, Tony, I can't wait for this to be used against you on your next BBC rant about the Palestinians who are killed becuse they happen to be in a market place when an Israeli gunship takes out a group of innocent civilians...guess they should stick to staying at home eh Tony ??

Can someone with a military background tell me what the probability of hiting a bomber at 25000 feet with an AK47 is ? Such a threat, yes, stick to confetti indeed.

I suppose the 3000+ innocent Afghan's who had survived 10 years of war, the brutal Taliban dictatorship are 'just unfortunate' for being in such a f**ked up country in the first place, oh, lets not waste tears on them, they aren't going to stay up and read your Mirror articles in the first place are they Tony.

Let me be clear, Sven, September 11th and the War on Terrorism- let's be less emotive and call it the Elimination of Terrorism, deserve something better than a third rate hack using this for cheap chears from the crowd. That is what so angers me about this rubbish. It's so easy to get a clap from shouting out what appeals to our lowest insticts, especially at times when our emotions are most raw and our feelings most exposed. That is not the job of a responsible journalist, this is simple rabble rousing, and I bet within days of this he was saying just the opposite when invited by some highbrow show with fellow novelists as guests. That is what makes it cheap. This issue is far to importnant to be trivialised in this way, just to sell newsprint.

[bosse_s]

Well said, Jasp. You've summed up pretty much why I dislike that article. It is populism and ignorance all wrapped up in a nice column in a nice paper.

So it is in the "worlds" interest to keep those guys in Camp X-ray, off the U.S legislation and out of any international jurisdiction and off international observation(apart from the Red Cross perhaps)?

It is an almost funny thing that it is on Cuba, the country that symbolizes so much of the U.S fear of socialism. On a land strip bought from them for a few bucks some hundred years ago, and an obvious provocation towards the Cuban regime. But at least it serves no threat against the U.S to keep these evil men off U.S soil...

In U.S interest... I can tell you for example that it is in Swedish interest to get to know on what grounds at least one Swedish citizen is being held there. J. Walker Lind was emediately sent to mainland U.S.A, obviously not judged in the same manner as the other POWs.

It is in the world's interest to figure out who these guys are... why not trust the legal system and let those guys know what they are suspected for... let justice (the civilized way) be done... We know they are not Al Qaida. Talibans, probably yes. That was your enenemy in that war. You could have populated the whole of Cuba with Talibans if wanted to do so.

[CuteEarth]

I have a big problem with the fact that Americans feel 9/11 is the reason they are doing what they do in the World. All I can say is You shuld have listened to Harold Pinter's speech at nobel price. You Americans only saw this at your door step in 2001, its been going on since the end of WW2. Your Foreign policy sucks so does the people that bombed the twin towers. America and Alquaeda are mother are both evil after all Al Quaeda was trained by the C.I.A, why I wonder?
Why is America so paranoid i ask.
Screw trying to play the whole ye the victims of 9/11 im sorry 2 my Uncle died in there 2.
Tell me why Iraq was bombed W.M.D? If so why was there non found. Connection with Al quaeda? Why is there no evidence of this? "The American people is a statement used by all American Presidents to Hypnotise you into the kind of Patriotism that makes forget to think rite" Harold Pinter (more4 chanel 8.30pm/ 7/12/05. I condemn Terrorism and I also condemn the divide and rule policies you use in many countries. You and terrorists are not different.
Yesterday I had a home, a family, a good happy life now I have nothing just a big Democracy, what does this democracy mean to me im only 3 years old i want my legs, my mum and dad and myh house.Democracy my ass whats with Guantanamo bay. Does the words U.N mean anything to you. How about the Geneva convention. Bush needs to be taken to international court of Justice oh I forgot he will bring the marines in hey. Go on tough guys terrorise the world. I feel sorry for all these innocent lives yu put at risk those in the U.S and which ever country you attack next. Why do you need 8 000 nuclear war heads im sorry you are actually worse than any terrorist. George Bush and Bin Laden can kiss my behind

[mykfin]

Hi CuteEarth, sorry to inform you that all these guys left this site ages ago and this thread is over 3 1/2 years old, so the chance of any reply is ziltch....................................... sorry.

Still its nice to see ya around.

[sortoff]

welcome CuteEarth... Your right! Bush can kiss our ass's!!!