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#2
1st November 2002, 00:54
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I know why!!!!
Quote:
No I think you are wrong... The very truth is that EU is a Nazi club, a lot of countries in crisis (political and social) trying to show a little of civilization to the world... I think Turkey is much better than EU, it´s true, EU has money annd a lot of things, but the Turks are alive, happy, sounds... the contrary of decadent Europe... Ah, it´s interesting the role of Greece in EU... Greece is just where the real Europeans go to forget the hard work... a kind of pitorest land, a zoo (maybe...  ). Turkey won´t become EU´s zoo...it´s Greece´s role there... Regards to ProudTurk!!!  
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#3
18th November 2002, 14:46
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Pegasus writes:
--------------------------------------------------- Just read all the messages posted by ProudTurk... Stupidity, non-respect of others, slander and racism seem to be the trademark of the turkish nation, if we may believe the abovementioned specimen --------------------------------------------------- Good job Peg... Is this your logic? You saw that ProudTurk mutually swearing with an Arab and extrapolated your results to define 65 million people racists? If emotional responses, insult and swearing make up your criteria, may I suggest you to take a look at Greek-run discussion forum sites on the internet in which one can find the pecularities of Greek hostility/hatred/swearing towards, Macedons, Turks, Albanians etc? Talking about racism? One example for you: A former president of Turkey, Turgut Ozal was Kurdish by nationality. Noone is discriminated as long as he's serving his nation regardless of the ethnical differences. I assume that you're Greek. You can make your smarty remarks only when you provide minority rights in Greece, let alone a Non-Hellenic sitting on president's chair. I see it's very conventional for Greeks to accommodate and train PKK terrorists in the camps in Greece (One of them is called Lavrion, isn't it?), send them back to harm us so that they would serve you achieving your own political aims at the cost of both their and our lives. Greek wouldn't give a damn to Kurds if they didn't believe in "my enemy's enemy is my friend" approach. Don't forget that when Saddam gassed thousands of Kurds in Halabja in Northern Iraq, thousands of Kurds crossed the border and sheltered in Turkey. I know it's just a waste of time as these all can't change your mind. Peace at home, Peace in the world.
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#4
13th December 2002, 13:14
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EU WILL REGRET
Well i see that most of the Europeans in here are against Turkey's candidency. Well, the first case you guys bring up is "Turks are from Asia, they are not europeans, they are in the middle east". Lemme tell you smthing ppl. Your old history of Princess Europa with the bull, that story took place in what today is Turkey. In Anatolia, in the east, we found traces of her journey. What you consider Turkey as being "Middle East, Asia", you are wrong, ANATOLIA is where YOU CAME FROM. So stop the nonesense, Turkey is in European Continent.
The second comes on Human Rights. I've lived in Europe for many years and all i can see in Europe is "caring for the criminal" and incredible "collectivism". A guy kills smone and gets out in 7 years. NOW IS THIS HUMAN RIGHTS? What about the poor victim and his/her love ones? Who is going to bring their loved one back? Then they criticize American prisons for being very tough. However, in Turkey, we dont go the American way. But we dont put pillows under the criminals either. This is how things should be. A criminal is a criminal, a decent human being will never kill another. In holland its allowed to smoke Marijuana. All you think about is "Lets allow this guy to smoke marijuana so he doesnt cause trouble and do illegal things". Well this is poor collectivism. Does anyone think about the person who dies from Marijuana abuse or other kinds of drugs. Because Marijuana is only the beginning of everything. We see junkies in the streets, being treated like pieces of crap by others. WE see depressed Teenagers smoking marijuana which later leesd to heroin and yes, death. The government is killing these ppl indirectly. The system is killing these ppl.
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#5
13th December 2002, 17:03
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ASertug you don’t have to try hard to guess why the Europeans have decided to give an end to that stupid joke,i.e Turkey’s accession into EU. You just have to take a look at your own mail. Threats and idiot allegations against Europe is not acceptable in EU (the issue of drugs is a social one and don't forget that these drugs comes in Europe from countries like Turkey!!!) As long as the military status continues to rule Turkey, u will never be accepted in Europe. Last week there was a summit in Italy between the Greek minister of defense with his Turkish colleague and complained about the Turkish violations of the Greek air space. The answer he got was that HE WASN’T AWARE!!!!! Unfortunately for u it is true and the whole world knows it: The army rules Turkey. One thing I accuse Turks of is that they don’t do anything to get rid of the military status. I mean we too had dictatorship once but the people decided to give an end. Further to the political situation in Turkey, the European governments will never allow entrance due to several other reasons. The truth is that we don’t need people like that in Europe:
http://www.ozgurluk.org/mhp/ We don’t have space for fanatics in Europe. Europe has its own problems and must deal with those. Human rights is another issue, so much discussed that I don’t have anything else to comment. Turkey’s macroeconomic elements is another element; the inflation rate is almost 200%, the country’s foreign debt is enormous (u see the military status needs weapons but couldn’t care less for the poor Turks), etc. Still, the major reason comes out from politics. Why do u thing that president Bush ( the president of the greatest nation as he wants to call himself!!!!!!!!!!!) is so much in favor of Turkey’s application??? Not hard to imagine eh! Turkey’s accession would simply mean that US would be able to influence and blackmail( we have already see that!) European decisions via Turkey. Oh well, the Europe prove that The European dream is still alive. Finally, the truth also lies in Ziscar D’esten’s words: Turkey’s entrance would mean the end of Europe. Is the fact that u r so much different from us that your place is unambiguously out of Europe. With a birth rate of way above the average of all European countries, your entrance would signal the flood of Europe by Turks. Germans and French knows that already. Berlin is the third city where most Turks live!!!! Why do u thing that there is a new German law that restricts Turks immigrants???? For all these reasons Turkey will never be accepted in EU. I just feel sad for all those modest Turks who live under the military status.
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#6
13th December 2002, 21:34
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TO GREEK
Well Greek, i thought i had to think hard cuz i take it really seriously. I thought Europe was a serious matter. But if you say so, then i wont think that serious anymore..
A few things Dont let me get started on the "invasion of airfields" in the Aegean sea, cuz i can see videos in Kazaa from Greek planes entering the Turkish airfields and making warlike behaviour. You see, both sides do this. To understand Turkish democracy.......... Our great leader Ataturk made the best out of democracy. Turkey is a country surrounded by rival countries, dictatorships, Islamic Republics,..so Turkey is a country surrounded by many threats and thanks to Greece and Armenia, we also have enemies within. So, the Turkish CONSTITUTION gives the SUPREME right to the military to defend our everlasting democracy from both External and INTERNAL forces. The reason TUrkey is one right now, and the reason Turkey is not fascist, communist, or religious right now, is because of our military. So first understand our democracy, then come and open your mouth. (A question for you, do u think democracy will exist if any of the powers above came in power?) Because you dont know anything about how things go in TUrkey. Greece's history of support on PKK (KADEK) and other separatist organizations are well known. As long as our enemies try to harm the Turkish Democracy, they will always find the Turkish military in fron of them. U surely have a poor knowledge of economics..Turkey's Inflation rate is high, thats right, its 30%. But it is falling down. INflation is not a big matter however, The only bad part of Turkey is the GDP, and that is going to be over soon as well. We have a very steady and rapid growth rate, and a dynamic-young labor power. Soon you'll see, that Turkey is a leading economic country. If 15 years of civil war was not fought, we would not have been having such struggle right now. But oh wait, i forgot, PKK has camps in Greece .... There is a saying that you feed the jackal, and he eats you..this is what GERMANY has done to Turkey. YEars ago they welcomed the Turkish workers with flowers and candy boxes. Now they want to get rid of them. The Turkish workers helped Germany grow for years. ANd also, Turks did not want to come to Germany. GERMANS invited them for God's sake!! So stop talking non-sense. Germany owes a great deal of apology and thanks to the Turkish labor. Drugs--if Europe does not make them legal, believe me, they will be much harder to get in-- I have one thing to say, To be Turk is an honor no matter what you or anyone else says. I have many GReek friends and i never judge people from their nationality. I hope that Greece and Turkey do get closer, but if many people have the same mentality in GReece, then it is very hard, yes. LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY...AND DEMOCRACY
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#7
14th December 2002, 19:46
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Is half the truth, the actual truth????? I read your answer and it is well established. Still, your answer is based upon your belief that Turkey is indeed a ‘Democratic’ state!! This is where I argue with u. You say that the military status is a ‘form’ of Democracy in Turkey’s attempt to secure itself against external ‘enemies’ ( u will probably mean Greece, Syria maybe Russia) and internal ones( I have to assume that u r referring to Kurds, the pontian Greeks, Armenians etc.). this is an interesting point of view cause it is the first time I hear that there are different forms of Democracy!!!! I know that the democratic political system is unique with certain characteristics. I speak about the human rights violations in Turkey but u see these things as Turkey’s way to secure its democracy!!! I can’t do anything to alter your opinion although I would expect from u to be more open-minded. I speak about the lack of freedom of press and people but u see that as the only way that the cosmic environment can prevail!!!! I say that if the majority wants to be Islamic let them be Islamic, if they want to be Muslims let them be Muslims. Either way Turkey’s place is outside Europe. I must state here that me too prefer a Muslim nation than an Islamic one but if peoples will is different……As I can understand u r saying that because the army supports the ‘cosmic’ system of Atattrk ( the man who butcher thousands of Greeks in SMIRNI) it is ok to use its power against all other opinions!! Well , this is not Democracy!!! As far as about thr Greek pilots violating the Turkish air space I have to say that air-crafts doesn’t work like cars!! U cannot just apply the brakes and reverse!!! The last week there were 2 attempts to disturb political airplanes, so if u r not familiar with the actual facts it is better not to say anything!!! U r accusing Greece of supporting the Kurdish fight against Turkey by providing its land for training!!!!!! I wish u could saw me about those camps cause I’ve never seen them. Not to mention that it was the Greek government which surrender Ochalan ( an act that makes me feel bad about my government!!) u see a few years ago the Palestinians had been characterized as terrorists but now the whole world recognizes them as a nation and even the presidency of US calls them for negotiations!!!! It is better to leave historical comments for next generations otherwise there is the possibility of mistaken!!! U say that Germany should feel benefited by the numerous Turks workers. Hardly u can find anyone not supporting your view. There were a lot of Greeks too remember! The difference is that Germany never applied these rules to Greeks!! Wonder why?????
U said that u r proud of being Turk like u are expecting from me to make fun of u because of that!!!!! I told u I feel sympathy for the poor ordinary Turkish people. It is just the fact that their government is fascistic not only against its own people but against other countries too!!! U call this a ‘form’ of Democracy so……!!!!!
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#8
14th December 2002, 21:17
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TO GREEK AGAIN--
Look, let me ask you a question--WHAT IS TRUTH AND HALF TRUTH? WHO DECIDES WHAT IS TRUE OR NOT TRUE? YOU??? I DONT THINK SO--
I understand the case you are trying to bring up cuz Turks generally face it many times especially by Greeks and Armenians. Turkey is a democracy. No matter what you say, it is a democracy. Human Rights violations...what are you exactly referring to? When a person creates religious extremism, or ethnic extremism, do you think that would be allowed? Extremism is the enemy of democracy. Extremism will leave Democracy powerless. If an Islamic government took power in Turkey, or a communist guerilla group came in power, will democracy exist anymore? NO. This is what Turkish military has prevented for years. You bring up your case as if these political prisoners are mild and nothing serious. These prisoners were created by your Government. They are the ones who work for you, and for your peoples Anti-Turkish hatred. You say "if people want to be islamic, then let them be", the current Turkish government is moderate-islamic. Its the people's will. Is this democracy or not? As long as everyone accepts Turkey as one and democratic, there will be no problem if the prime minister is kurdish, or if the leading party is Islamic. There are villages in Greece,(just to name a few) called Kardamos and Organi w/ Turkish population. All we see in these places are burned down mosques, anti-turkish propaganda, and s/f. IS this your democracy? Did you know that the Pontus Greeks in Turkey operate peacefully and well? Did you know that we had a president who was Kurdish, to name him--Turgut Ozal? Did you know that there are Armenian Patriarchs in Istanbul and numerous Armenian churhces and villages in Eastern Turkey? This is democracy, this is freedom of religion and ethnicity. I ask you to watch out for your words. Kurds or any of the other enthnics you mentioned are not the enemies of Turkey. Turkey treats its citizens with equal rights and opportunities. PKK is a group who does not represent the total kurds. PKK is a group who has been brainwashed by Athens and Erivan. You have not seen a camp in Greece???? Well, maybe you should know that United States' Global Terrorism Report of 1998 showed Greece, Syria, aand Iran as countries supporting PKK. And why do u think Abdullah Ocalan was caught in the Greek Embassy in Kenya? Are you blind or what? If United States had not pressured Greece, Abdullah Ocalan would not have been given by Greece. Greece has always been a safe haven for PKK and for DHKP-C. The Greek governments "Greek Complex" is the reason behind all this. oh by the way, there are pictures of Abdullah Ocalan with the old Greek Parliement Deputy Speaker named F. Vounatsos. Your intentions are very obvious GREEK. Even when you argue about PKK, you say "kurdish fight" against Turkey. When you are accusing Turkey of being a drug route, did you know that the drug that comes to Europe comes from PKK? WHen these PKK members are caught, they become TURKISH. But when they are not caught, they become so-called "Kurdish Freedom Fighters". Think about that... I seriously feel sorry for the Greek and Armenian who make Turks seem like butchers. Maybe we could have been more like the English who used "prima nocte" against the Scots. Or maybe the SPanish who massacred away the Mayan civilaztion and culture. Or maybe the French and Dutch who took away the African Culture. Can you see one trace of unique Scottish culture now? Or the unique language of the Incas or Mayas? Or countries like Senegal accepting French as their mother tongue? But look at you and the Armenians? Do you think your culture exists today because your ancestors were closely tied to it and were very nationalist?? NO--your culture exists today because the Ottoman Empire was an Empire which did not intend to massacre cultures and civilaztions. You shoudl be grateful. I know that many Greeks have such complex as you do. A history of lost battles in both fields. Who will ever argue against Turkey in such manner as you do? Turkey is a democratic state which grants all its citizens equal treatment. Turkish military has soldiers from kurdish origin-to arabic. Can you find a single Welsh or Scottish police in England? or in Greece so to speak? Dont forget that communism is a system, but Democracy is a way of life. You do not have to feel sorry for anyone, because there is noone to be felt sorry for. Remember that. I just feel sorry for your complex, but your complex is cureless,and no matter what i say, your hatred will not be sustained. just live with it...
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#9
15th December 2002, 02:58
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Oh well, if u want to believe that u r living in a Democratic environment go ahead, I can’t do or say anything else about it. U said that this is my own ‘complex’ belief but it seems u forget yesterdays decision….but maybe the Europeans have some kind of ‘complexity’ too!!! History provides the facts and no matter how much Turkey tries to contaminate history, the facts remain. U said that extremism is the enemy of Democracy…so far so good…but let’s ask the Kurds who they consider as extremists!!! U probably know that until recently the Kurdish language was forbidden!! but in order to have the Europeans think that Turkey is moving toward a democratic system,the government decided to ‘give some freedom’. Therefore under the new Turkish law a tv channel in the Kurdish areas is free to broadcast its program for 1 hour per week in Kurdish!!!! Well done!!! This is definitely a ‘Democracy’..the way u understand it! U said that Greece created this problem for Turkey!!!! I think u overestimated the power of my government. I told u before that in general Greeks not only sympathize Kurds but supports them financially, just like a lot of Italians do ( By the way I don’t know if u heard what Pronti said right after the Copenhagen summit: Turkey will never be accepted in Europe.. wonder why??? Probably because they are ‘fascists’ like the Greeks??). I heard of Mr. Vounatsos and I have to say that it seems to me all right. He does nothing more than supporting the Kurds just like supporting the Palestinians and the Iraquish people! !!
u said that the current elected government is moderate-islamic so that proves the existing ‘Democracy’ in Turkey….I don’t want to hurt your feelings but I believe that Mr.Erdogan despite his win cannot be the president of the country because of his believes!!!! Nice Democracy!!!let’s apply this ‘Democratic’ system to the whole world! Not to mention that because of YOUR COMPLEX AGAINST EUROPE don’t allow Islamic women to wear their scarves publicly…well done ..once again! In your attempt to support Turkey’s ‘Democracy’ u said that the Christians and Armenians monasteries in East Turkey operate without restrictions!!!! I’m sure u could have come up with a better argument because many Greeks have the unpleasant surprise of visiting Greek monasteries (PANAGIA SOUMELA etc.) with guns pointing at them!!! And no matter how mad this sounds, in the ‘Democracy’ of Tyrkey it is possible to happen!!! Not to mention that the HALKI RELIGIOUS SCHOOL ( a symbol for all Greeks) is closed for ages!!!!! Not to mention the catastrophes took place in AGIA SOFIA temple where BECAUSE OF YOUR COMPLEX u alter the internal part of the temple just to look like Muslim made!!!! But u see history is all about facts. It was made by Greeks for Greeks and all Christians. About the drugs u r right I guess…let’s blame the Kurds…that might give u another reason to invade in their areas!!! U write: what about the English, who did that…what about the French who did that…what about the Dutch….and u r asking if I can see any trace of Scottish culture nowadays ( which I have to say I can and I’m very happy about it), any sign of the language of Incas etc. THEN WHY YOUR COUNTRY DOES THE SAME????????? Now let me be the judge of how civilized was the Ottoman empire! I just want to say that I find it very rude and inhuman to hear u say that the Ottoman empire was a civilized one!!! At the very end of your msg u say that Greece has lost all wars against Turkey!!!! That is a very extremist and fanatic point of view. Again for the sake of History Greece never lost any war against Turkey since 1800( In Cyprus the Greeks didn’t fight because of dictaroship!!!) what kind of history books are u reading anyway?? I assume that this is the history tought in Turkish schools….The ‘Democracy of Turkey’ must go on ( but outside Europe). To close, let me remind u that I don’t hate the Turks ( I’m not willing to repeat myself take a lokk at my previous msgs). The only difference between u and me is that I believe u r living in a non- democratic environment ( and I feel sorry for that) while u believe that u r living in a perfect Democracy despite the very recent ‘signs’. …….Oh well keep on dreaming
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#10
19th December 2002, 22:01
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Lets review the decision in the Copenhagen summit again, if you want to. Turkey wanted an earlier date, however it was set for a year later. Although this is not we had wanted, it is still a satisfying result.
You see, look at what you have written. Just read it all. So who is the one who is blaming the KUrds for being terrorists? YOU or me? It is you, yeah you guessed right. I say PKK you say Kurds. PKK is now a world-wide terrorist organization, in Europe, after the 11th of Sep., their offices were shut down along with DHKP-C. We call them terrorists, knowing that they do not represent KUrds for us. But you keep on insisting that they are Kurds and they represent Kurds. THen you are the one who is blaming them to be terrorists. After all, thats what you want them to be, thats the only way you can get them to oppose Turkey. DID YOU REALLY HEAR ABOUT (MR) VAUNOTSOS??? REALLY??? THen go back to what you said a few responses ago, and correct yourself by saying "Greece supports PKK (KADEK)". You are going down even more... Mr. Erdogan will be president, as you will see soon enough. THey have already amended the constitution, and he's running for candidancy again. So wait and see...wait and see...you'll see democracy. You blame my government, the Turkish government of being fascist. What exactly is fascist? Lemme tell you what is fascism. A person who enters a Discussion Board with teh name of "Greek", who does not seem to have any respect for individuality (based on his name), and who throws away sluggish comments w/out any proof on sovereign and proud countries like Turkey. That is fascism Greek... Agia Sofia, if Turkey doesnt pressure international communities, you'll probably still call Istanbul Constantinople..right? THere are numerous MOsques turned into Churces as well, such as those in Hungary. Ottoman Empire had all the rights to change it. What you are doing now is even worse, you are creating more of a religious extremism by making religious comments like "made by-for cristians".... Ok, ok ok, greece has never lost any battle against turkey. greece was under ottoman rule for 600 hundred years, but never lost a battle...ok ok.. You know, i can find many wrongs things about your government as well. but i dont go to communities such as belgium.com to attack Turks in such a manner. I urge you to open your eyes, and accept the truth that you cannot take Turkey. in the words of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk "Peace at home, peace at world"
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#11
20th December 2002, 02:15
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I thought I lost u for a while but it’s nice to have u back!! First of all I want to make some things clear cause u were quite aggressive against me in your last msg. I was and I will keep posting my msgs whenever I feel that something must be said about anything!!!!! I hope u don’t really want me to give up of that right I have??? do u? besides that’s why these forums are for!!!!! Remember I found U in this forum!!!! U were posting your messages before me so stop this propaganda otherwise I will have to remind u what u have said about my country in previous msgs!!!! ( I am not going to quote your msg in this one, but stop the propaganda about someone who is entering a discuusion forum and blab bla bla). U accused me of choosing the name Greek!!!!( I don’t feel the need to tell u that I am proud of being Greek and that I wouldn’t mind using this name even if all other reasons vanish). I deliberately chose this name cause I start writing my opinion about Turkey and because the whole world knows that our countries have some problems I thought (and I still believe ) that I made the right decision. In other words I state from the beginning that I’m Greek!!!! I hope that u can understand that by doing this I weaken my position if I wanted to use propaganda against your country!!!!!
Now as far as the rest of the context of your msg I have to say that u disappointed me. Compare this one with previous messages it lacks arguments. Still, let’s try to say some things about it: U said that despite the fact that Turkey didn’t get the date she wanted, still she got a date which is something satisfactory. What I’m trying to say to u is that Turkey will never be accepted in EU whether that pleases u or not!! This is the truth!!! I discussed the reasons in previous msgs. Let me tell u what will happen ( no I’m not a prophet but a man with some reasoning) in 2003 ( December) will be formed a body with aim to identify if Turkey fulfills all those reasons ( political, economical, etc.) so that EU can give her a date for negotiations!! I told u what I believe it will be the outcome of that body’s decision!!! It reminds me the history of that NATO body responsible for identifying whether Irquish have nuclear weapons or not? WHILE WE ALL KNOW THAT US EVENTUALLY WILL ATTACK!!!!! Now to your second argument about PKK!! I told u before Greeks support PKK and u know very well that they r Kurds for heaven sake!!! Don’t tell me that u want to change their nationality???? That would be a racist thing to do!! And I remind u that it is not only the Greeks who support them but almost all Europeans (despite the will of many European governments , u see everything is all about policy!!). Greeks are well known to support these kind of people fighting for freedom when their claims ARE BASED IN HISTORY ( PKK, PLO, etc.) and I told u before let the history judge who was a freedom fighter and who was a terrorist. As I wrote before , a few years ago PLO was a terrorist group but nowadays is an equal opponent in the diplomatic field!!! Third point of your message was something about Mr. Erdogan. Well here goes the answer: I am posting this msg on 2:55a.m. during the day light I watched the news WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER ( I don’t recall his name I thing Mr. Sezer) REFUSED TO ALTER THE CONSTITUTION AND THEREFORE DENYING MR ERDOGAN THE PRECIDENCY!!!!!!!! But let’s leave that cause I believe that sooner or later this will happen ( otherwise Turkey is entering a period of more severe political confusion)!!!! I mean u were like….wait and see..wait and see…the constitution will change…u see Democracy!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT’S WHAT I’M SAYING THIS IS NOT DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!!! if Turkey is a Democratic state why she has to alter the constitution and why even now refuses to do so???? This is no Democracy my friend. Next point about Istanboul!!!! For me and for all Greeks it will always be KONSTANTINOUPOLI!!!! U cannot contaminate history even if the whole world agree with that!!! It is that simple!!! Thus stop acting like u have discovered America! Ottoman empire had every right to alter the inner part of the temple???????????????????????? Is that what u wrote???????I can’t believe my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COULD U PLEASE PROVIDE THE TREATY WHICH ALLOWS TURKEY (OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY ) TO DO SO?????????????? I think u should be careful in what u r writing cause u r exposing yourself. And stop the propaganda about creating religious extremist. It is a fact, what can I do about it!!!READ SOME HISTORY (not the one coming from the Turkish school books though). AGIA SOFIA was made by Greeks for Greeks and for all Christians as a temple and as monument for all civilized people to admire it, whether u like it or not!!! Finally, let me say that u don’t read carefully my msgs. I said that SINCE 1800 Greece has never lost any war against Turkey ( if the ‘Turkish’ version of history argues something else let us know that!!it would be fun). Furthermore, Greece was under the Ottoman rule for 400 years and not for 600 years as u wrote. That period of time held Greece back economically!!! U don’t have to find any wrong about my government cause I’m the first who pressure it to improve things in my country. MAYBE U SHOULD DO THE SAME!!!!
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#12
20th December 2002, 15:17
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Actually, dont worry u didnt lose me. I just had my exam week, so i was a bit busy with that. I was expecting you to comment about the "change on my tone and my aggression". I mean, lets be honest, there is no way you are going to change me, and it looks like i wont change your opinion. There is no real grounds for argument. And also, the message that you replied to me before i replied to you also didnt have any arguments, it was just pure repetition. You said you found me before you came here, well i was just responding to Pegasus whom i happened to find in this forum. I came hear to comment on Belgium, cuz i love Belgium. But what i saw was again a few Greeks finding a way to argue against Turkey. I just dont understand why its always Armenians and Greeks?? I dont see anyone else attacking public forums like this just to diss Turkey. (Just to give you an example, the World Cup 2002 forum in yahoo was attacked by Armenians..)
You choosing the name Greek for urself does not represent anything for me other than blind nationalism. Sorry about that. You have not weakened your postion or so forth, it just shows the world the real face of some Greeks. Thanks about that.. Well, many of the EU countries, other than Germany and France, seem to be supporting Turkey's case. What i want Europe to know is that, they cannot do without Turkey. Turkey will always be there, and with or without Europe, Democracy will be the power in Turkey. I am hopeful, and am actually looking forward for a date in December. SO i do not agree with your opinion. Again.. Dont forget that losing Turkey will be a big lost for Europe. No you did not. I told you PKK has facilities in Greece, and GReece is a safe haven for PKK, and you denied it until i reminded of Vaunotsos. As i told you before, PKK does not represent Kurds. Take that and really stick with it. I have 2 Kurdish roommates, and they are not PKK. PKK represents nothing but a bunch of brainwashed terrorists. There are voluntary GReeks and Armenians in PKK as well.. PKK is a terrorist organization. Before 9/11 we used to see their offices in Belgium, but now they are all closed along with the Marxist Communist Guerilla group DHKP-C, which is also supported by Greece. Now, PKK is a world-wide terrorist organization, and your support for them clearly outlines the fact that Greece is a supporter of terrorism. Does Greece also support the ETA against Spain?? No?? I wonder why... Let me tell you an interesting fact...when PKK publishes their illegal newspapers, they write in Turkish, cuz they know that a kurd from a different tribe cannot understand what is being said. PKK is trying to brainwash the Kurds in such a manner, but as we all see, Kurds are not terrorists. They are just being blamed as terrorists by people like you. Did you know that, the party you considered to be fascist (you are prbbly referring the the national movement party MHP), has Kurdish leaders in them. They say it, they say "Yes, we are Kurdish, but we are Turkish". This is what it takes Greek. Everyone can speak their language and believe what they believe in as long as we all say we are ONE. It is free to have Kurdish lessons in Turkey. But it seems like there is a lack of interest by many KUrds.. ...wonder why again. You know, i wanted to mention it even before you did. yes, Mr. Sezer did veto the law, because he said "this is a law that only works for the sake of a person, not for a population". But now, the veto will be sent back to parliement, and sent back to Mr. Sezer again, who will have to pass it or send it to the Parliament for a vote. And the Parliament will pass it. In the end, Mr. Erdogan will be the PM. Now, what the events above show us is, yes, DEMOCRACY. Pure Parliamentary system. Working in its full capacity. This is Democracy. You have outlined the fact that TUrkey is a democracy, by yourself. We see vetoes in all democracies, dont we?? If that doesnt happen in Greece, maybe thats a problem for you. Let me tell you smthing, Greeks are well known to support those who serve for the idea "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". What you support is an organization of Marxisim and drugg smuggling. You are not supporting anything Greek. Constantinople is a chapter of history..just like the Roman Empire, Byzantines, and other collapsed Empires... It will live in HIstory, but Istanbul will live forever. Dont forget that. Listen to me Greek!!! I am not saying Aya Sofya was built by Emperor Justinian. I know it was built for the Roman Empire. But Mehment the Conqueror changed it to a mosque. It served as a mosque for years, and lived up through many earthquakes and troubles as a MOsque. Ataturk changed it, and made it a museum cuz it deserved to be a museum. So since 1800..when did the Ottoman Empire collapse again?? I dont think it was around 1800...tell me ur case and i'll correct you. I read various books, not only Turkish ones.. I dont have to find anything wrong with your government cuz its none of my business. You become part of my business when you interfere with my country. I also stand up against my government. I also hate many politicians in Turkey who seem to work for themselves, and you seem to puncture and kill Capitalism and Democracy by corruption. I hope they all find their trouble. I also hate those brainwashed extremists (both leftists and rightists). An assassination took place in Turkey yesterday, they killed a writer (Hablemitoglu) who was writing a book about the Religious Extremists in Turkey (THE ONES YOU SAY HAVE NO DEMOCRACY). The book was to reveal all their intentions to corrupt Turkey's government, and make it an Islamic State. And the man was killed just yesterday. Or how about heroes like Ahment Taner Kislali who was killed by Religious Extremists as well,for saying Turkey will never become an "IRAN". Your case on Human Rights is blind. You just see what you want to see. I told you before, and i will never get tired of telling Greek. My friendship with Greeks are very good. When a Turk, and Greek meet in a foreign environment, they are the ones who become close..cuz like it or not, our cultures are smwhat similar. If only some of the fascist and Complexed Greeks stopped their complex, and put an end to this madness. In the words of Ataturk "We have always moved from East to West"....Peace...
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#13
21st December 2002, 01:24
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First of all, I hope you did really well with your exams.
You should understand that is not my aim here to change your opinion cause I know that this would mean the denial of your government and maybe of your patriotic conscience. As I told you I started posting my msgs after I read some threads of a poor guy called ProudTurk (and unfortunately some of yours too) not in order to defend my country! (that would be meaningless!!) but to provide some historical facts. So don’t tell me how much you love Belgium cause all of your msgs had something to do with Greece! The only relation I have with Belgium (so far) is this forum (answering your msgs mostly) and that I am a fan of Breege Football club! I have to say that it surprises me the fact that u cannot understand why is is always the Greeks and Armenians who r posting msgs against Turkey ( I believe that my msgs provide a field of different thoughts but you don’t see it this way…), while you know, or at least you should, that Greeks and Armenians suffer the most from Turks!! On the other hand Turkey had never accepted as a historical fact the Armenian genocide, the Pontian Greek genocide or all the slaughtered Greeks of KONSTANTINOUPOLI, so I guess there is no ground for mutual understanding as you said!! Despite the reasoning I provided for choosing this name you still use it against me in order to classify me as a poor nationalist and nothing more!! I don’t feel the need to provide these reasons once again so….keep believing that I’m an extremist. u have to give me soma grades though, cause after all i'm an extremist who is chatting with Turks in a public foreign forum without even once using inappropriate language!! The main point of your msg though is your opinion that EU can’t do without Turkey ( that’s what I’m interested in, in this forum)!!!! It seems you forget that Germany and France stood up against US as far as Turkey’s application!!!! I am not willing to repeat my arguments ( my msgs are above) but I would like from you to support your opinion that ‘Europe cannot do without Turkey’!!! I’m leaving out of our discussion the ‘Democracy’ thing cause it didn’t get us anywhere so far!!! About the Kurds, you will probably know that there are almost 15 million Kurds in Turkey nowadays!!!! I believe that the number is so high that no one can argue that they do not constitute A NATION!!!!! You have to understand that apart from the Kurds that live in the mainland and have been ‘adjusted’ and compromised with the current situation, THERE ARE ALSO KURDS WHO TRY TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN STATE!!!!!!! I don’t want to disappoint you here but sooner or later this state will be created because US will create it!!!!! And please don’t tell me that they can freely speak their language cause this is a pure lie!! Not to mention the restrictions that they are not even allowed to wear clothes similar to the ones in their flag!!!! These things happen in the Eastern part of Turkey, but a few people are familiar with the actual facts cause the majority lives in the western part of the country where the ‘cosmic’ environment prevail!! I should remind you here that these areas ( the most poor ones ) gave the Islamic party the win in the recent elections!! Next thing: you r using my words to describe what will happen as far as Mr Erdogan’s presidency. I told you first that eventually Mr Erdogan will get WHAT HE DESERVES!!!! BUT YOU CALL THIS A PROOF OF DEMOCRACY!!!! oups sorry!!!!i forgot no common ground for this issue!! I recall an interview of Mr. Ochalan where he was telling exactly what you said. I remember ( of course I’m GREEK and you can accuse me of lying !!! but…) that he said that he was very disappointed about the Greek government that they don’t support PKK’s fight for freedom since Kurds and Greeks have the same enemy (turkey)!!!! It was the time that the Greek government was heavily influenced by US. I am honest with you and I expect from you to be likewise!!!!! EVERYTHING IS POLICY!!!! The concept of the ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ stands for every country in the world!!!!! Should I remind you that Turkey is co-operating with Israel in military issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please remind me when Turkey and Israel were best allies in history!!!!!! Cause nowadays US and Israel are Turkey’s most precious allies!!!!!!!!!!!!! OR DID YOU EXPECT FROM GREECE TO BE THE ONLY EU COUNTRY IN FAVOR OF TURKEY!!!!!!! DO WE HAVE A HISTORY OF FRIENDSHIP THAT I’M NOT AWARE OF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So you see my friend that all has to do with policy and the current situation!!! You are right, I will never forget KONSANTINOUPOLI! It was a huge part of the Greek history! Finally you admit it yourself that AGIA SOFIA was turned into a mosque!!!!!!!!!! Despite the fact that it IS a monument for all Greeks!!!! Still, I’m not going to grade this one for you cause there was nothing else to do!!! U SEE, IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT!!!!!!! I know the Greek history quite well and I can assure you that the Greek rebellion against the Ottoman Empire started in 1821 without the help of the big powers of the time. I don’t want to mention the actual events took place during that period cause you will found open ground to blame me (once again as a fascist!!!)!! if you want I can do that for you!! The attack from Russia took place after those events!! Then there were the Balkan war and the history goes on!!!!! The only war that Ellinismos ( I hope you can understand the meaning of the word, there is no translation for that) suffer a lost was the invasion on Cyprus. that war Greece didn’t fight cause there was a dictatorship!!!!!!!! That is why Turkey invade anyway!!!!! I interfere in Turkey’s policy because we are leaving in a global environment and who r we kidding anyway we know that Greece’s number one threat is Turkey!!!! But that’s not the only reason I care about the political situation in Turkey. I care for the human rights not only of the Kurds as you want to believe but those of the Irish. ETA ( I was recently in Barcelona but I can’t say about it cause I am not familiar with the historic facts). And believe it or not that doesn’t rule out Turks. I heard about the assassination and I am very sad about it. That is what I’m supporting : political assassination should be stopped!!! I just believe that ‘white cells’ is also political assassination ( Chomski calls it ‘ state terrorist’) and you not!!! Since now, 98 people have died in these cells!!!!!!!! AND THAT IS A FACT MY FRIEND. I will overcome your bitter comment in the very end of your msg. I have a lot of stories to tell you about my friendship with Turks in Bristol where I used to study, but if I tell you that the Turkish guy agreed with me as far as the ‘Democracy’ thing concern you will tell me that I’m a GREEK fascist whose telling lies so……….. Good luck with your exams. I know how it feels………
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