Turko-Greek relations (not that kind of relations, my good you have a dirty mind!)

[de_ira]

Stop insulting one another!

Try debating like civilized men!

Try discusing something else (e.g. the certainty of the Iraq war)

Keep the religious and nationalistic comments. Being a Serb I enjoy them, and could think a couple for the Turks - even though i don't support neither side in this case and I don't generally dislike Turks (well not all Turks anyway).

DE_IRA

[ASertug]

De_ira or whatever you are. Its easy to see that you are a Serb, only Serbs have such a hatred towards muslims.

Its in your ugly words, you are full of hatred. I have no business with people like you. People like you deserve to get punished. I am happy that USA kicked your ass. All those attacks USA made, i only support the bombing of the Serbs.
Serb, you are evil. You have no idea about religious torture, you seriously dont. YOu want some examples, i will give you some--
Greece has lowered its muslim population to hundreds by planned assimulation and forceful migration tactics.
French, English, Dutch, Belgian and other European Imperialists have changed the religion and culture in AFrica. That is why we only find the real African languages in little tribes, where the country speaks Euro language. This is why we see Christian Sudan fighting Muslim Sudan. Civil wars based on religion. Who brought this evil into Africa? There are museums of Africa in Belgium, where you tend to see skulls of Africans. This is civilization?

The Ottomans of course tried to influence Islam, like every big empire did. But the consequences of not turning into Islam were not harsh as it was with other empires. Of course you had more benefits if you were muslim.

I have no offensive remarks against your religion, although i even doubt you have a religion since i recall your words. but anyways, to get back at you at your tone, i hope you get the hell away from this world, you'll do the world a good.
Dirty Prick

[de_ira]

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me!? Well, I don't see anyone else here (by the name of de_ira), so you must be talking to me! All righty then - you are talking to me; I mean it's no big deal or anything right?

But seriously, do you really believe what you said about your precious Ottoman Empire? I do not know enough about modern day Turkey to judge it - so I don't - but when we are talking about the Ottoman Empire, I know everything there is to know, it's written down in my blood and with the blood of my ancestors. I do, however, agree with you on one point. African, Asian, Oceanic, Australian, North and South American native nations have been totally assimilated, ruined, destroyed by the most primitive acts in recorded human history by countries and nations which take great pride today in their being civilized and democratic. Priceless treasure was lost forever with the disappearance of these indigenous cultures and nations, and, in most cases, it will never be recovered again, their place has been taken by globalization. I don't see how those people can forgive their wrongdoers and allow them to have influence on them even today.

But, let us return a couple of centuries in the past. If the Serbian and other Balkan nations had enough foresight to predict what could happen and unite in opposition to Turkey in 1371 when the first Serbian territories fell under Turkish rule, or on 28th June 1389 - the eve of the Kosovo battle the European powers saw their obvious interest in helping the Serbian army today we would have had a entirely different Europe.

Imagine if you will: It's 1371. The Turks have been forced out of the Balkans for good. The Balkan countries unite in opposition to the Turks, and stay united out of fear of another attack. They never fall under Turkish rule. They don't have regressive and unproductive feudal relationships forced on them for centuries to come, but adopt a Capitalistic system in the following centuries. They are all Orthodox Christians - even Albanians - except for Croatia, a Catholic nation. Their religion is developing freely and undisturbed. Their union expands beyond military alliance and becomes an economical, religious and social union. No hatred on either religious or national grounds exists - because their nationalities, their religions and their rights to express them are not systematically banned and obstructed. The First World War has newer happened, or has happened in a smaller scale because the Austro-Hungarian Empire doesn't dare attack a Union of Nations much more unified then their and as large as their union. The thirst for redrawing the maps and getting colonies has to be clenched some other way - possibly through wars in non European continents. The Second World War didn't happen, because the first one didn't happen and the German people don't have any grudges for losing the First one. That's millions of lives saved, millions of families are never torn apart, biological and nuclear weapons are never used (they are probably developed, though, in a later date), concentration camps have never existed, the great and proud Jews, and the humble and talented gypsies are never persecuted and destroyed, they exist even today in the Balkans in perfect unity, and with the same rights and obligations as all the other nations in the Balkans. None of the bloodshed took place during the 1990's. Muslims don't exist in the Balkans and nationalities are freely expressed, there are no conditions for any conflicts to arise because Bosnia is purely Orthodox Serbian; Croatia is purely Croatian (the Serbs had gone there after fleeing their homes in Kosovo and Serbia, running away from the incoming Turkish armies) except for the southern Adriatic shore; Kosovo is purely Serbian Albanians are orthodox Christians, Maybe Bosnia and Macedonia never exited. None of the Balkan countries are rushing towards the EU or NATO so fast that they are trampling their history, their culture, their pride and their folklore - why? Because a mini European Union and a mini NATO are represented by the Balkan Union which doesn't use it's economical, political and military powers for evil purposes such as waging war with outnumbered, out powered, outdated and poor countries which can barely survive as is. The power held by this union would be used to promote peace, understanding, equality and goodwill between men, strongly opposing any and all Imperialistic, Expansionalist and Colonialist goals of corrupt and greedy nations. Add to that that the Balkan wars (1912-1913) were never fought and you see how the World would be a better place today if Turkey never succeeded in invading the Balkans.

Once again I state that Turkey was no better than any other colonialist country, except for the fact that they didn't cross oceans to do what they did, they expanded over land - like the Russians - but like in the case of the Russians that doesn't mean that they were any better.
One of the most horrific things Turkey had ever done is burn the remains of St. Sava - the father of Serbian national and religious consciousness - in order to destroy the cult of St. Sava and to break the religious and national identity of the Serbs. This was done on April 27 1595. the order came from Sinan-pasha. Needless to say that they did not succeeded, the only thing they did succeed in doing when they did that outrageous act of Vandalism is bringing upon themselves the uprisings and Balkan wars sooner. Knowing this how can you state that the Ottoman Empire did not in fact utilize all of its power for the sole purpose of destroying and assimilating nations and religions and expanding Islam?

Another good example is Albania. Albanian was a 100% Christian country. It has been that way since the fourth and fifth centuries of the new Era. So, if the Albanians were not forced into changing their religion and national identities, why then did they in fact do exactly that, why did they change their religion after a 1000 years of being Christian? THEY WERE FORCED TO - THAT'S WHY!!!

Yet another good example is the before mentioned 'Danak u Krvi' or Tax in Blood. The Turks came into the villages and the cities and stole healthy Serbian children and took them to Istanbul. Then they brought them up as if they were Turks. The children were thought Turkish, they were thought Islam. Finally the Turks committed the most monstrous, criminal, inhuman, disgusting, revolting and sinister thing imaginable by a human mind, no matter how evilly twisted. They used those children to smother uprisings and rebellions of their own people in blood. They sent those children to kill their fathers, mothers, brothers, uncles and all other people which would have given their lives to protect those children and which loved them more than life itself. There is even a story or book, I don't remember well, a teacher mentioned it in elementary school, it talks about this Tax. The main character is Serbian boy took to Turkey brought up to be a Turk and to hate Serbs. One day he was sent back to Serbia as a soldier to fight the Serbs, which have risen once again against the Turks. Upon returning to his homeland he found his mother. I don't know either she recognized him and he killed her or he recognized her and laid down his weapon, as I said I don't remember, it was a long time ago, anyway it goes to show how deep-rooted this is in the consciousness of the Serbian people.

Knowing this how can you justify what the Ottoman Empire did, and how can you go around accusing others of atrocities which were committed by your country as well? How can you say that the Ottoman Empire wasn't like every other Empire? How can you say that their goal wasn't the destruction of nations and religions?

Think about it!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're looking for trouble,
You came to the right place,
If you're looking for trouble,
Just look right in my face,
I was born standing up,
And talking back,
My daddy was a green-eyed mountain jack,
Because I'm evil, my middle name is misery,
Well I'm evil, so don't you mess around with me,

I've never looked for trouble,
But I've never ran,
I don't take no orders,
From no kind of man,
I'm only made out,
Of flesh, blood and bone,
But if you're gonna start a rumble,
Don't you try it on alone,
Because I'm evil, my middle name is misery,
Well I'm evil, so don't you mess around with me,
I'm evil, evil, evil, as can be,
So don't mess around with me
I'm evil, I'm evil, evil, evil
So don't mess around, don't mess around with me
I'm evil, I tell you I'm evil
So don't mess around with me

[ASertug]

De_ira, i was talking to you. YES. But you know why? Just go back and read what you wrote in the other thread named "why turkey hsould never join EU". What would you do if you were me? I am not against your religion in anyway, but the anti-Muslim hatred that i see in many Serbs really irritates me.
I read some of your half-true half-propaganda comments on Ottoman HIstory. I am not the "protector" of the OTtoman Empire, but i do believe that compared to other Empires, Ottoman Empire was a less strict Empire. I am sure, and i know it that if you were a Muslim under the OTtoman Empire, you will gain more rights and more freedom. YOu are right. But on other cases, you were always free to choose your religion and practice it freely. It was the Ottoman Empire who saved the Jews from Spanish oppression.
And you say it in your words that these things could be seen in 1300s. Just go back to 1300s and compare what OTtomans were doing w/ others. Who is more tolerant?
But Serbs are doing it now. Even though we are in the age of high tech communication and real free democracy, SErbs are still spreading religious hatred like a venum.
The problem arrives since Serbs did not convert to Islam, and many Albanians did. The chaos started as itself.
Dont forget that when the Bulgarians, Serbs, and Croats were fighting each under in a bloody shed, it was the Ottoman Forces to stop these fights. So you should not tell me how "united" balkans are. As we can even see now in times....
NE MUTLU TURKUM DIYENE