It would be the end of Europe if Turkey enters the Union.

[moods]

This view has been expressed by many European Officers recently that If Turkey enters the EU then this will be the end of Europe.

Turkey has one of the most poor economies compared to that of the rest of its neigbouring countries ( Cyprus , Syrial , Israel etc) . It has a hign unemployment record , high Inflation and its economic structure suffers from a lot of Internal problems.

Its human rights records is also highly criticed from Europeans and the rest f the world. The democratic structure of the society consist of many barriers and no Freedom like any other European Democracies.

It encourage a hostile environment among its neigbouring countries and You can hardly find a neigbouring country of Turkey not to be considered by Turkey as Enemy.

The political decisions are mainly taken by the Army statues in Turkey , which classified Turkey as the only one Country in the World which decisons are taken by the Army status and not the politicians. It has been internationally accused by genocides including Armenian genocide although Turkey its the only Country internationally who continues to deny such events .

Turkey ignores many of the UN resolutions thats have been established against Turkey and there is no sign that Turkey will obey EU principles.

Therefore Turkey can not be classified as a European Country. Since Turkey Fails to adopt many of the European Values and Princples . Other Countries Like Iran are considered more European than Turkey.

[politics_student]

How can you make such a comment??First of all,Turkish nation is against European Union this is something political only,I don't know where are you from but Turkish nation is fed up always Europe stucking its big nose into our affairs!!(actually this is the mistake of our fool politicians)You say Armenian genocide but nobody says about something about the Turks at this time which has been killed by Armenian revolters and who reminds about the assaults taken against the Turkish Cypriots by the EOKA terrorists? and you made me really laugh about most of your comments so try a bit to read some books about the realities of politics and don't speak about a country if u haven't visited or don't know something about it!!Life is not as represented from your relaxing TV canals! and look at dictionary what genocide is.

[moods]

First I have nothing against Turkish people , but I am Sick with the DIRTY policies and practices that your government is adopting towards its neigbouring countries! Why do your government encourage a hostile environment towards your neigbouring countries? Why did you classified all your neigbours as your enemies By your Army statues? Why you do not remove all these barriers you have with your neohgbouriong countries? Why you do not let Cypriots to travel to Turkey? Why you do not have Free Trade with your neighbours and especially cyprus ? How can you GROW in such a hostile environment that you had created? Why do you let the Army statues take political decisions and intervene in politics ?
If you encourage hostility You will receive Hostililty!

Second If Turkish people were against EU why the application is there and not withdrawn? Why the Prime Minister of turkey was absent in Athen where the 10 new members of EU were to sign for entry? Why you do not behave as any other European country Does? Why did you ask the help of your neigbours ( your enemies) to assist you enter EU, while you have all restrictions with them.

How can you grow in future in such a hostile environemnt?

To remind you again that I have nothing agaisnt Turkish people !!

Thanks for reading ,

[politics_student]

Thank for your comments.First,as a Turk and as a Turkish citizen I am also not content with most of the policies of my country.First of all I myself is agaist Turkey`s application into EU,Turkey is a very important country strategically it`s like a bribge between europe and asia,between balkans and middle east,between europe and central asia.For th's reason turkey should follow a neutral policy between this countries.For example I think Turkey should strengthen its relations with Russia and China and also have good relations with Europe!But shouldn`t be part of it,in a way it`s ridiculous Turkey to apply for it because EU is a cultural project.Thanks to god there were some honest people like Giscard D`Estaing which referred to this reality other European politicians are always lying to our stupid politicians but Giscard D`Estaing have behaved HONESTLY.
Let look some neighbouring countries for example Iran as you know Iran is a religious country,ruled by fundementalists though Khatemi is more moderate the reality doesn`t change.Almost 7 years ago Iran ambassador in Ankara made a propoganda that Turkey should follow Iran`s line and then he participated in a theatre where fundementalists made a propoganda.As you know from international law Ambassadors can`t intervene in the affairs of a country,namely Iran wanted for many years to deport its regime,today more moderate ruler Khatemi is on power and I think Turkey should have good relations with Iran,but unfortunately Turkey disregards Iran!!
Coming to Cyprus,if Turkey accepts trade with Cyprus this would be than Turkey would estoppeled from its previous saying that she didn`t recognize Cyprus namely this is something political as you know Cyprus also didn`t recognize Turkey.
Now I have to go,as a last year university student I have very little time but I will continue in evening with my reply...

[politics_student]

Now lets continue,but Turkey is situated in a very dirty region I think for example u have referred to our neighbours but do we have a good neighbour??For example Syria,Ýran,Iraq all these countries are supporters of terrorism.Most of the fundementalists are accomodated in these countries,PKK terrorist was settled in Syria then by Greek embassy!!!All know that How can one support a killer of 30000 innocent people!!Yes Turkey has certainly some guilts but Turkey is not the one.Sorry I have to go again this is the end of my reply for now...

[imported_Greek]

ok boy!! try to see the other side of the story as well for a sec!!!

Ochalan and army was fighting to gain independence for the Kurds. a few years ago he was granted as a terrorist , mostly by the US gov, but then again these are the people that the world community has decided that they really deserve a country. 20 million peopple out of 65 is too much just to call them a minority. besides remember that a few years ago PLO and his leader Arafat was also considered to be a terrorist but then he was accepted as an equal member to negotiations in the white house!!!

I guess the genocide of the Kurds doesn't ring any bell to you (you are good at this anyway) more than 2000 Kurdish villages were burnt from the Turkish army, the human rights violations against that particular group of people are also well documented by all international forums!!!

as for Ochalan captured in the Greek embvassy??
follow this reasoning for a while:
before he came to Greece (secretely since the gov didn't know anything form the beggining about that move) he went to Italy , Russia etc. he came to Greece with the help of some of his Greek friends. when the Greek gov got informed about that he couldn't sent him to Turkey BECAUSE AT THE TIME THE DEATH PENALTY WAS STILL VALID IN TURKEY!!!!!!!

THE MAN WAS ABOUT TO BE SHOUT!!! NO EUROPEAN GOV WOULD EVER DO SUCH A THING!!!

still, the Greek gov that you so much accuse, he sent him to the Greek emassy of kenya;;;;; the biggest US base outside US!!!!! why do you think they chose that destination?? it was a set up from the beggining!!! Greece handed in Ochalan to Turkey and personally i feel ashamed for my gov for doing such a thing!!!!!!

[politics_student]

Ok,Mr.Greek I will tell you something about international law!! You should know this,as Europe allways hide itself behind it when it`s in their interests but neglect it when it`s not.So you say in Turkey there lives 20 million Kurds and they should be granted independence,if u look at internatinal law the principle of self-determination can be applied only to colonized countries and today there are no more colonized countries,self-determination that will destroy the integrity of a state is illegal not important if there were 20 or 30 million kurds!!Look at France there are also several gorups or look at Spain then Spain and France should give territory to these groups and permit these groups to break the integrity!!But certainly the rights should be given to Kurds namely their rights to be able to speak Kurdish language or to permit practice Kurdish in schools,unfortunately (you are right at this point)Kurdish people aren@t regarded as a MINORITY and this is a mistake of Turkish government,Kurdish state should be given their rights!!If u don`t give rights you face objection.Look at spain they give more rights to Bask region and today ETA terror is more diminished.Even a Kurdish film was banned recent days!!by Turkish government.
On the other hand,I am a Turk living in Aegean part and don`t know something about the eastern part of Turkey where the Kurds are in majority.But I heard and know that they live in great poverty because the TRurkish government disregards this region,'illeteracy is very high and birth rates are also very high causing(result of illeteracy) an instability.and unfortunately Kurds are not loved by many people especially after the terror of PKK people began to hate Kurds even my own parents warn to be get into friendship with them.They see all Kurds like terrorists which is very wrong!!
But even it`s so TERROR can`t be legitimate APO has killed innocent 30000 people and caused great damages to Turkish economy.when coming to death penalty,I am in favor of it!!and I feel very ashamed as Turkish government banned death penalty,because Europe wanted so=)As you know in US also legitimates death penalty!!and this is related with the sovereign rights of a state no other state can dictate the other state what to do in this respect!So as Greece safeguarded APO in its embassy all the Turkish people,including me were very nervous!!If Greek side didn`t have returned him to Turkey there would be a huge protest against Greek embassy!! as it was in Italian embassies!!
Last say,if u ask my own thought about this issue I have nothing against Kurdish people I have also many Kudish friends(I didn@t listen my parents warnings ) and I think Turkey should save itself from eastern part!!What the EU desire very much!!!Because Turkey with eastern part would remain always undeveloped with the eastern part but if I say my thought to my friends they look me as if I am crazy!!actually there are right a bit because if we give eastern part they say in one day Greeks would come and want the Aegean part(This is rather ridiculous as there are no Greek minority in Aegean part) namely there is a Turkish saying: `If u give your hand u can`t save your arm` all the Turks and Turkish government look the issue at this side.The only solution is that Turkish government should deal with the eastern part for eaxample no Turkish investor want to invest there(as they fear terrorism Rightly!)but unfortunately Turkish government can`t deal with this part and Kurds should be given their rights of freely practicig their languages listening their songs namely Kurdish people should be regarded as a minority as Turkish government regards only someone as minority who is from different religion..

[imported_Greek]

Your thoughts about the Kurds are quite similar with mine

[kotu_kedi]

Greek, my friend, how dare you guys discuss without me ?

Ok, let's sort these things out.

Let's start with Apo and PKK.

FACT: All people using terrorist methods (such as attacking civilians and killing them) are terrorists regardless of the cause they are fighting for.

CONCLUSION: Apo is a terrorist, PKK is a terrorist organization.

PKK never fought for the Kurds my friend. They killed the Kurds who don't approve of their organization! They killed the local teachers to prevent the education of Kurds.

Fighting for independence...peh.. eat my foot..

Today 20% of Turkey is Kurdish, however pro-Kurdish party got only 5-6% vote! My friend, forget about "seeking indepedence", 3/4ths of Kurds don;t even vote for pro-Kurdish parties.

"Kurds want independence" is a big lie created by PKK as a pretext, and it's thesis supported by foreign enemies (countries who supported PKK) in order to weaken and damage Turkey.

Simple as this..

And there was no genocide against Kurds, though there definitely was human rights abuses. It's very normal to have human rights abuses when you are fightting with terrorism. It's easier to critisize for European countries, because they didn't have somethink like PKK biting their behind all the time. Look at US man. 3000 people died (compared to 30000 Turks), and huge human right violations are happening. Guantanamo bay, Patriot Act...

>>THE MAN WAS ABOUT TO BE SHOUT!!! NO EUROPEAN GOV WOULD EVER DO SUCH A THING!!! <<

Hahaha, yeah right. You know Alquida chief Khlaikh Sheikh Mohammed has been arrested in Pakistan by CIA officers, and he's being interrogated at an unknown location with unknown methods by CIA officers. All we know is that US media is discussing whether torture during interrogation is a good thing if it's gonna save innocent American lives.

Now I ask you. Remember when Apo was caught and when he was being interrogated in his "palace" that he's kept in, there was a flood of European so called human rights observers watching what's happenign to Apo. How come all those so-called human rights observers and their respective countries staying silent while US media is discussing which torture method to use ?

And say Bin Laden is captured in Europe. Do you really believe that European countries will not give Bin Laden to US unless US abolishes her death penaly??

So I guess, now you know that Europe's protection of Apo was purely political. They wouldn't really give a crap about Apo's life. Thousands of Iraqi children died under sanctions in the last 10 yrs, did Europe care about it?

[imported_Greek]

FACT: All people using terrorist methods (such as attacking civilians and killing them) are terrorists regardless of the cause they are fighting for.

CONCLUSION: Apo is a terrorist, PKK is a terrorist organization.


FACT: All people using terrorist methods (such as attacking civilians and killing them) are terrorists regardless of the cause they are fighting for.

CONCLUSION: Turkey is a terrorist state


and how do you believe Mr. EWrdogan got the presidency? He was accused for supporting the Kurds you know, don’t you? you know that the regions giving him the presidency were the region that the majority of the Kurds live don’t you?


"Kurds want independence" is a big lie created by PKK as a pretext, and it's thesis supported by foreign enemies (countries who supported PKK) in order to weaken and damage Turkey.

Simple as this..

If they wanted to damage Turkey they would simply cut off the IMF supplies

Simple as that…


And there was no genocide against Kurds, though there definitely was human rights abuses. It's very normal to have human rights abuses when you are fightting with terrorism. It's easier to critisize for European countries, because they didn't have somethink like PKK biting their behind all the time. Look at US man. 3000 people died (compared to 30000 Turks), and huge human right violations are happening. Guantanamo bay, Patriot Act...

Hahaha, yeah right. You know Alquida chief Khlaikh Sheikh Mohammed has been arrested in Pakistan by CIA officers, and he's being interrogated at an unknown location with unknown methods by CIA officers. All we know is that US media is discussing whether torture during interrogation is a good thing if it's gonna save innocent American lives.

And say Bin Laden is captured in Europe. Do you really believe that European countries will not give Bin Laden to US unless US abolishes her death penaly??

So I guess, now you know that Europe's protection of Apo was purely political. They wouldn't really give a crap about Apo's life. Thousands of Iraqi children died under sanctions in the last 10 yrs, did Europe care about it

Who said I don’t agree with you?


Now I ask you. Remember when Apo was caught and when he was being interrogated in his "palace" that he's kept in, there was a flood of European so called human rights observers watching what's happenign to Apo. How come all those so-called human rights observers and their respective countries staying silent while US media is discussing which torture method to use ?

Ochalan had more than 7 months to see his laywers and his relatives.

[imported_rolimandoli]

... if they do their homework.

If Turkey concurs with all the reqirements for a EU membership I see no reason to leave Turkey out.

Roli

[moods]

But The question is " Will Turkey proceed to comply to the Copenhagen criteria?

There are currently two governements in Turkey!!!The Politicians and the MILITARY REGIME!Will the Military Officers that are of great power in Turkey be willing to elminate their power? Its not that easy as you think so. Or You propably YOU DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT TURKEY! Turkey now has TWO VOICES (from military regime and Plolitician regime) Thus Changes to be done are not that easy.

Turkey has described the EU as a Christian Club that do not want Mulsims to enter in !! EU set high standards in order to allow them to enter. These standards are compulsary for every canditate country not just Turkey!

First the Military Officers in Turkey that have guided Turkey to International Isolation need to take their responsibility and resigh or to accept NO ROLE IN POLITICS Of Turkey like any other European country!

If Turkey seeks membership in EU need to behave like any other European country thats respects the International Laws and agreements. As long as the MIlitary regime is there and Strong as it is ,Turkey has no ROLE in EU . OTHERWISE WILL BE THE END OF EU.

Let me remind you that the military ofiicers comprise of very very rich people in turkey that will not sacrifice their wealth to accept memebership of Turkey in to EU.

[hakancan]

------------------------------------------------------------
The Turkish Minority's problems regarding education continue and are growing steadily more serious. This conflicts not just with the provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne, but also with the 1951 Cultural Agreement between Greece and Turkey, and the 1968 Protocol between Greece and Turkey. Deprived of proper teachers, educational materials and modern buildings, the children of the Minority face the bleak alternatives of becoming either undereducated second class citizens of Greece or of going to Turkey for their education and so becoming alienated from their own country and in many cases, losing their citizenship as a result

There are numerous problems in the field of education.

To cite a few:

The ethnic Turkish Minority today can neither establish, nor manage or control its own educational establishments despite the explicit provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne.

By an order of the Minister of Education in 1993, students to enroll in the Minority's two high schools are selected by an arbitrary lottery system. In 1998, in accordance with this regulation, the Celal Bayar High School in Komotini and Muzaffer Salih High School in Xanthi have not been permitted to accept Turkish students exceeding the number of forty. This is a stark indication of how Greece treats its Turkish Minority, since every year about one thousand students graduate from the Minority's primary schools. As stated above, the Treaty of Lausanne gives the Minority the right to establish its own educational institutions. The response of the Turkish Minority to this policy as well as the reactions of some Greek groups have passed unnoticed.

The Minority is also deprived of the right to choose its own teachers. Since 1968, the Greek State has been unilaterally training "minority teachers" in the so called "Special Pedagogical Academy of Thessaloniki". These teachers, chosen arbitrarily and educated by the Greek Government, lack basic qualifications and even have difficulty speaking proper Turkish.

Furthermore, in October 1995, despite the minority’s unanimous opposition, the Greek Government put into effect the new Education Act targeted at the Minority. The act created new mechanisms to put pressure on the Minority.
------------------------------------------------------------


eu constantly badger turkey with allegations about ignoring minority rights!!!
so what is happening in eu countries?


------------------------------------------------------------

[hakancan]

Freedom of Expression and the Press


Even though the Minority is allowed to publish its own newspapers and magazines in Turkish, distribution of the newspapers, magazines and books published in Turkey is not permitted in Western Thrace.

Furthermore, Turkish television and radio broadcasts are jammed by the Greek authorities. The journalists who work for newspapers in the Turkish language are frequently subjected to pressure by the Greek authorities. Many of them were prosecuted for articles they publish, especially for ones criticizing the Greek Government.

[hakancan]

The Turkish Military always necessary for secular Turkish Republic since the begging of Turkey Republic
you can call it as "MILITARY REGIME" but it is not. since some of the foreign countries supporting the old-fashioned systems in turkey The Turkish Military always became a guarantee for secular system!!! in the first years of Turkey Republic it was england who support the sultan and provoke the people against to secular Turkey Republic,
and england tried to show Ataturk as a traitor by exploiting the religious and cultural values!!!
until now the actors changed but the situation didnt!!! there are still some countries exist which have the same aim such as iran and germany!!!!
Germany appliying a secular and democratic system in their land but the same Germany secretly supporting sect leaders (such as Kaplanci) against to turkey and also trying to increase the revolts by exploiting religious values in turkey!!! so the military important for turkey.


Also i wanna say something about eu. its my belief nobody has to agree.
i believe that if the human rights important for eu ,their start point must be their constitution, i think that they must be more sincere about terrorism and human rights.

[Edited by hakancan on 26th June 2003 at 22:05]