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#1
30th August 2003, 17:40
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Do the Kurds deserve an independent state?
Kurds consist the largest ethic group without a country.
Their recent history is filled with oppression. The kurdish drama of the 20th century occupies a black page in the book of contemporary history. Saddam Husseyin used chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction to exterminate kurdish villages. Thousands of civilians died. From the other part, "the Kurds have been miserably oppressed throughout the whole history of the modern Turkish state ... In 1984, the Turkish government launched a major war in the south-east against the Kurdish population ... The end result was pretty awesome: tens of thousands of people killed, two to three million refugees, massive ethnic cleansing with some 3,500 villages destroyed." (as stated in a essay by MIT professor Noam Chomsky). Therefore, during the last years, several rogue states organized military operations in order to exterminate the kurdish population. Actions that remind us, historical atrocities, like the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide. http://www.britannica.com/worldsapart/3_print.html The time has come for Kurds to establish their own state. In the past, the international community supported the struggle for freedom of various nations. Today, in the new economy era, the rotten administration of Saddam has fallen as an apple. Do the international community support the desire of Kurds to live in their fatherland with dignity and freedom? The last decade, millions of Kurdish political refugees live all around European Union. It is predicted that the establishment of Kurdistan will solve a long pending political problem. It will provide the opportunity for millions of Kurds to return in their lands. Democratic Europeans have the moral obligation to support the establishment of Kurdistan. [Edited by save_europe on 30th August 2003 at 17:04] 
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#2
7th September 2003, 19:58
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ont the other hand pkk killed kurds in turkey. not only turks!!!!! i repeat; Realistically you cannot expect Turkey to 'let' those terrorist actions in turkey, can you? which government would? turkey fought against to pkk and other terroists. no matter turk,kurd,arab,persian,german, brittish etc.. PS: i am not against to a kurdish land as long as it is not interested with turkey's borders and the life of turkomans
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#3
8th September 2003, 10:19
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Can we say that Hitler was friend of Jews because he had jewish ancestry. Or can we claim that Nazist Hitler administration was tolerant to Jews, because thousands of Hitler's soldiers were of Jewish Descent? http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000346. It is obvious that the beforehand Turkish state that terrorizes its citizens. Should the Kurds of Turkey stand pathetic to watch Turkish police torture and rape their wives? Or should they defend themselves? In the Constitution of the Turkish republic, the following phrase is mentioned thirty-three times: 'Anybody who opposes the indivisibility of the Turkish Republic with its nation and its country, will be deprived of their basic human rights and freedoms.' In addition to this, and according to the Turkish Criminal Law (para.125), the Anti-Terror Law (para.8) and a number of other laws, anyone who tries to divide the country, who says that there is more than one nation in Turkey, who acts on or organises on the basis of this matter, can be punished by various penalties, including imprisonment and execution. It is also a crime to say 'Hurray to the Turkish-Kurdish brotherhood.' The Kurdish deputies who added this statement to their pledges at the opening ceremony of Parliament in November 1991 were first beaten and then taken to court for attempting to divide the country. To have Turkish nationalism accepted by the people, all institutions, especially in the field of education, are held responsible for its propaganda. In elementary schools, all pupils have to rise when their teacher enters the classroom and have to respond to his 'Good Morning' with 'Thank You'. And then they have to recite a long text starting with the phrase 'I am Turkish, I am honourable, I work hard.' This text ends with 'I give my existence as a present to the Turkish existence.' This is not only the case in elementary schools, but also in High Schools. In all universities, academies and colleges Turkish Revolution History is a mandatory course. The objective of the main textbook is to explain Ataturk's revolutions. This book shows that these revolutions were based on nationalism and that they secured Turkey's place in the world. Who are the german and british terrorists against Turkey? In Turkey, European union offices and human right organizations are seen as supporters of terrorism.
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#4
8th September 2003, 10:26
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#5
8th September 2003, 15:47
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i really dont know if his farher was a Turk or not, i am not sure may be you are right about that may be he was a half-turk and half-kurd.but it doesnt change the fact.
because the sick terrorist Abdullah Ocalan was half-turk too. Turgut Ozal was a kurd and he frankly stated this many times... you are absolutely wrong about Turgut Ozal, he dismissed the generals of turkish militay in security council, this is a well-know fact. if he was a puppet then how can he did this? as you can realize a puppet cant do these all!!! indeed he was not a racist or a racism represantative!!! firstly i need clarify something i didnt say turkey is faultless or never made mistakes; turkey made mistakes but not only for kurds, it was both for turks and kurds and others, what you can not understand is this!!! there is nothing like this "aha kurd lets kill,lets rape" this kinds of things was never become fact, some stupid events happened but not only to kurds!!! indeed you can not distinguish the difference between turks and kurds with looking at them!!!turks and kurds living in those regions together. now in recent years(i said these before many times) legislations passed, more rights given to ethnich kurds,and full equality on all levels is instituted. Turgut Ozal is one of the most liked presidents(even the kurds liked him,he was not a racist or a racism represantative as you stated!!!)in the countries history...Turkey has MANY successful Kurdish businessmen, artists, singers,scientists,mayors,sportsmen, etc..all working IN Turkey...If Turkey had wanted to practice discrimination-it would've done what Greece does..NOT PERMIT THEM TO EVEN PURCHASE HOUSES..The fact that there are many successful ethnically Kurdish people in Turkey SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.. can Greece claim to have an ethnic Turk as a Prime Minister, or better yet as anything other than as an oppressed minority member? Quote:
all these are very well documented!!! and the confessions of militants are so clear!!! you wrote about major war but you talked about jews,turkish laws and etc, but yet you failed to prove your point... You keep on whining about the Kurds, yet you fail to realize or even recognize the factual and consistent violation of human rights going on within your own countries. If you are so concerned about human rights and minority affairs why do europe never point to the fact that Saddam is massacring the Kurds on a continual basis? BECAUSE YOUR GOAL IS NOT TO DEFEND KURDISH RIGHTS, it is to simply portray Turkey in as negative a light as possible... Why is it that you can be so hypocritical as to not even consider the violation of the most basic rights of Turks as a minority in Greece? Until a decade ago the Turkish minority in Greece wasn't even permitted to purchase CARS, HOUSES, or any valuable asset IN ACCORDANCE WITH GREEK LAWS! How about the fact that Turkish minority leaders have been killed mysteriously at the hands of the Greek government, how about the fact that Turkish minority leaders have been locked up in prison to the Dismay and objection of the European Union and human rights organizations? Is this the kind of pragmatic and 'convenient' democracy that the so-called 'cradle of democracy' practices? Quote:
i said no matter turk,kurd,arab,persian,german,british etc... Quote:
in Turkey they seen as what they are!!! the reports and proofs of Hablemitoglu is so clear!!! the mails of the head of the eu represevtatives in Turkey Karen Fog is so clear!!!the confessions of terrorists are so clear!!! you know what?who are you to deny it? [Edited by hakancan on 8th September 2003 at 16:28]
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#6
9th September 2003, 11:03
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If Turkey needs to be respected It first need to respect the International environemnt and International Laws!
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#7
9th September 2003, 15:26
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Extreme Greek nationalists started massacring Turks on the island to eliminate turks, then when Turkey steps in to save them, the EU puts an embargo against that 'evil' and 'barbaric' Turkish 'occupation'. Thus causing Turkish cyprus to suffer economically. they've suffered immense economic losses and been punished like they were 'guilty', while at the same time the treatments of these organisations against to greek side was like a reward (even though the Extreme nationalist Greek Cypriots were the ones to start massacring Turks illegally) Turkey did not occupy Cyprus, but saved it from the occupation. and now i cant imagine what would happpen if the Turkey do these all instead of greek junta under the name "enosis and megolo idea"!!! as far as i heard the %80 of Greek Cypriots against to solution, or is that wrong? i personally believe that Turkey shoud immediately remove herself from the island if the turkish cypriots want it... because i think that there is no need to wasting time, energy, and resources on something like cyprus!!! greece care for her benefits, otherwise why Greeks want the unification that much? Or they just care for the Turkish Cypriots? Wasn't that Simitis who was talking about succeeding the ENOSIS in the end? I have seen THOUSANDS like you...Hiding under the mask of objectivity in order not to reveal your real bias!!! you consistently do what you accuse others of!!! Show me ONE conflict in which you think Turkey might (I emphasize MIGHT) be right? please dont use that kind of manipulative tactics, first take a look at your hypocritical and pragmatic respect understanding!!! Greece helped pkk, what is your excuse for this? what did these organisations do? NOTHING, there were pkk headquarters in greece? is that what you call respect to international laws? lots of politicans have relations with pkk, PKK had government and folk support from italy,germany france etc...is that what you call respect? good then you have a great respect to terrorism!!! now kadek is still a legal organisation in europe and just a week ago, they declared that they will attack Turkey soon!!! Greece violated human rights and Greece caused turkish minority people to live an inhuman life, what happened? NOTHING i just cant understand why a human right defender country support a terrorist organization against Turkey. eu countries helped pkk what happened? NOTHING , greece helped serbs to massacre muslims, what happened? NOTHING what is your excuse for the eu membership of cyprus? it doesnt suit with international laws, what happened? NOTHING where is your respect to international Laws? what happened to your idealist respect understanding? in Turkey politicans have immunity and people always opposed that, when they(politicans) commit crime, they can not be get arrest!!! what kind of a respect is this? but did any of these so-called human rights organisations or representatives draw an attention to this? No, instead of this, they want immunity for themselves to exploit Turkey with a more easy way DENMARK,SPAIN,UK AND POLAND invade iraq with disregarding international treaties and UN... what happend? NOTHING, what did these so-called organisations do? NOTHING but allthough Turkey didnt invade iraq, Turkey blatantly threaten by eu!!! what did UN do? NOTHING, a crazy cowboy claimed mass destruction weapons in iraq and invaded iraq!!! so where are these weapons then? and where is this UN? but before 1989, Saddam was a dictator again, but this time USA was helping a dictator, what did UN do? NOTHING if you call these all as respect to international environment and laws, i say "NO THANKS", we dont need it!!!
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#8
9th September 2003, 16:28
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Hakan, I thought this was a Kurdish issue, what has Greece to do with it or the Cyprus issue? It's no use to blame others, everybody has a dark side in his history.
Yes, Greece ans Russia helped Yugoslavia and maybe is this something to be ashame of, but what about the support that was given by the islamic world for Bosnia. They received for 2 billions of dollars weapons, the moedjahidin sent thousands of warriors from all over the world, even Turks from Germany. All these help was for Izetbegovic, a fanatic muslim freak ( if you read his manifest, you'll understand why ). Nobody said sth about it, no critism. I'm not blaming or supporting any side here. It's just to complicated to know the truth. Everybody is to blame and everybody is right.
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#9
9th September 2003, 19:43
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and the UN resolutions which condemn Turkey for violating the basic human rights of Turksihcypriots and Greekcypriots" i hope you can understand me now, i just made some corrections and noticed some facts and it was not me who started to talk out of the topic!!! Quote:
there are turkish sect leaders in germnay and they have their own communities. and they are against to "SECULAR TURKISH REPUBLIC" too. they commited lots of crimes in Turkey, if you think that we support them, i advocate you are wrong. indeed as a muslim i am against to that radical groups who kill innocent people!!! Turkey lost scientists,journalists,writers, etc just because of these groups and turkey still waiting for the delivery of these sect leaders...
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#10
10th September 2003, 06:23
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- Why is his father racist? Just because he's Turkish? - Is racism a genetical disease?? Quote:
 . Anyways, any evidence of a military gov't to back your allegation? Quote:
And regarding the rapist police etc., again do you have any backing for your allegation that police regularly rapes etc. Kurdish people? I think you're just repeating urban legends that you got thru hear-say channels. Quote:
And it's Article 11 of European human rights convention that says: "1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests. 2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime,.. " See the "national security" footprint? Let me explain you what it is, say you are expressing your view in France or in Germany such that it contradicts national interests. LEGALLY, you can be put in jail. If you believe there are no limits to freedom of speech, you're very naive. All countries have limitations on freedom of speech when it comes to national security. Especially in Europe this is very tight, for example the anti-racism laws in Europe can have you jailed/fined for saying something that the government does not approve of. Only United States of America has an almost ideal freedom of speech. For example you can sell mugs with Nazi logo on it in the USA freely, however you'll get jailed for that in France or Germany. Remember the case when a French dude sued yahoo for selling stuff with nazi logos on it, and yahoo gave the finger to him since freedoom of speech in the US allows it. Not that I like Nazis in anyway, but I think preventing them from voicing their opinion is a violation of their rights. You know a thing or two (the Turkish law etc.) but how come you don't know the obvious fact that every country has such laws? I think you know it, but you're deliberatly ignoring it and pretending as if only Turkey has such laws. Quote:
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Apart from your allegations, let's come back to the topic whether Kurds deserve a country or not. I agree that Kurds suffered during the Saddam Husseiin regime (even though some were traitors for working with Iranian forces). But I don't see how exactly the pain they suffered justifies taking land from other countries and giving to them. I mean if someone is willing to give soil just because they feel pity for them, then that's fine. But if people are not willing, what are you gonna do?
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#11
10th September 2003, 14:05
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Hakan, the fact is that Turkey helped also with weapons like the Germans did for Croatia and the Greeks for the Serbs. And all that during the UN weaponembargo for all the former Yugoslavian republics. Anyway, I was wondered why you attacked Greece while this was not the issue.
It's so easy to blame the nationalists for slaughtering the TC's in Cyprus. You seem to forget that the TC's choosed the British side when the GC's asked for enosis which was the wish of the people. If the majority was Turk and they decided for enosis with Turkey, do you think that Greece had the right to stop that? I don't think so. The Brits replaced all GC policemen by TC's and gave also weapons to fight the Greeks. The TC's were not EOKA's target but they become the enemy thanks to the British. In both sides a lot of things happened which we should regret, Greeks and Turks. I suppose you heared about TMT's activities. Don't forget that the junta does not represent a country, they were not elected. Don't forget that the Greeks suffered more under the junta. In that case was the Turkish invasion in Cyprus not so bad for Greece, we got rid of the junta. The invasion was ok according the Treaty but only to re-establish the constitution. Turkey was afraid for a political solution, they were afraid getting less than they wanted (Taksim - 38% of the territory), so they prefered a military solution. Anyway, this is history and we should look forward. Enosis and Megali idea don't exist anymore, Simitis ment by enosis the EC, where they are more or less united with the rest of Europe. So, it's no use to use these 2 things against us. These are different times. I think that the solution must be given by the Cypriots and with no intervention by no matter who. But even that seems to be very difficult. I think we can agree on this.
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#12
10th September 2003, 15:33
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baglamas
about cyprus issue i made myself clear i repear; i think that if turkish cypriots want turkey to leave island turkey should leave the island...
as you can see the topic is not Turkey has never respected the European Court for Human Rights and the UN resolutions which condemn Turkey for violating the basic human rights of Turksihcypriots and Greekcypriots or If Turkey needs to be respected It first need to respect the International environemnt and International Laws! now my point is clear, i just draw an attention to that so-called respect, i hope you can get what i mean
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#14
11th September 2003, 15:20
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what i am saying is obvious also i didnt only talk about greece as you can see!!! now it is interesting that you dont see the ones who started talking about different issues!!! you couldnt convince me about your objectivity. i didnt talk about only greece and i didnt claim turkey is faultless what i am trying to say is that so-called respect has no credbility i just draw an attention to this not manipýlated anything!!! i talked about these crookednesses besides turkey is already at fault for the persons above i just wanted them to Show me ONE conflict in which they think Turkey might (I emphasize MIGHT) be right?
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#15
12th September 2003, 12:54
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I didn't try to convince you about my objectivity. You're a Turk, I'm Greek, how objective can we be? I try to see things from a distance, more open and clear.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about this respect and credibility stuff. But to make that hard, you took some facts out of context. International politics is not about who's right or wrong but about benefits and interests. And everybody acts according this priciple. We can see the same hypocrisy nowadays in the Palestinian conflict.
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