200 Churches unite against the BNP

[Marmaduke]

I cannot believe I am reading this ! You cannot be fascist of you are standing for democratic elections ? Where on earth did you arrive at that myopic description of fascism !
Go read Gramsci's 'Prison Notebooks' and gain some informed insight into the subject (even Orwell and his account of the Spanish civil war would be a start). Fascism is an ideology- the fact that certain groups seek election is blindingly obvious since they don't have the power to take it without seeking the democratic route (at present anyway). Change events as happened in Germany in the 1920/30s and that position can change rapidly.

What is so dangeous is this narrow- and inaccurate views of how fascism has developed and has the potential to do so again (needless to say one only ha to look at the recent anti terrorism legislation in this country- and possibility of an even more draconian Patriot Act II which could no doubt be a future template for further restrictive legislation here) to see how democratic governments could unwittingly (I'll be charitable and assume Blunket isn't a closet Nazi) lay the very legislative foundations, which given a suitable dramatic change in circumstance, could pave the way to such people to really put their shallow ideologies into practice. You can guarantee the Daily Mail will eagerly sweep this along without a moment's hesitation (just as they were so 'supportive' of the Jews fleeing Hitler in the 1930s).

Don't think it can't happen- history is littered with the corpses of those who thought 'it can't happen here'. George Soros has already criticised the Bush junta as the biggest threat since Fascism in Germany (as have other commentators such as Krugman, Vidal etc) and he had the benefit of seeing's its incubation. The ghost is far from gone- and it is not just in 'anti-semetic' Europe that it could rear its ugly head once more- how else did Prescot Bush gain his wealth and pave the war for the present Bush dynasty ?

[Last_Knight]

I'm not believeing how you can compare todays BNP to the National Socilism in the 1920/30s. And I also can't believe you are calling a Blunkett a closet Nazi, although you said you weren't. Nazi is the mose over-used word in description of someome you don't agree with.
You really should look into the ideas of National Socialism, in the fullest, before calling people one. It's a joke how people of this nation go around calling people Nazis when they have a voice of their own that a certain left group of people don't agree with.

It seems you're enjoying the over-population of Britain, by people that in all rights don't belong here. Maybe the 200,000 a year coming in illegally, not to mention the 'legal' ones makes you happy.

In any case, the National Socialist ways of Germany in 1920/30 occured with 90% support of the German nation, do you think they didn't want him in? Now, the BNP now has not got the full support, mainly because the British will soon be outnumbered. If the BNP did follow the lead of the Nazis in Germany, I'm sure Europe and America would step in. Britain and America let all these ethnics in and they get called racist when they start worrying about terrorists. Are we vetting all these on the Euro-star? No, I didn't think so.

A group being facist is one that surpresses Democracy through force, Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany and so on. Without being in power through force, you cannot be a facist. Someones description of the word cannot change its meaning.

Maybe we should pull out of Iraq and defend our own nation from this attack that's been going on since the 80s...

[Shevchenko]

...are called "economic gold" by politicians and rightly so.
If a significant amount of people are upset by it then they can simply volunteer to wash up/clean/pick fruit & veg/wait at tables for a pittance and force the illegals to move somewhere else.

[voltaire]

Originally posted by Last_Knight
In any case, the National Socialist ways of Germany in 1920/30 occured with 90% support of the German nation, do you think they didn't want him in? Now, the BNP now has not got the full support, mainly because the British will soon be outnumbered. If the BNP did follow the lead of the Nazis in Germany, I'm sure Europe and America would step in. Britain and America let all these ethnics in and they get called racist when they start worrying about terrorists. Are we vetting all these on the Euro-star? No, I didn't think so.

Ah, now the root views come through

The BNP don't "not have the full support" because of immigrants outnumbering "British" people. Non-white minorities account for less than 10% of the UK population. Further, most of those will have been born in the UK and have an equal claim upon "Britishness" to UK whites.

As for "these ethnics" we've had white terrorists in the UK for decades so I hardly think skin colour is reflective of likely terrorist status.

A group being facist is one that surpresses Democracy through force, Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany and so on. Without being in power through force, you cannot be a facist. Someones description of the word cannot change its meaning.

[/b]

Here's a quote for you:

"The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate." - Nick Griffin, speaking in the aftermath of the BNP's victory in the Tower Hamlets by-election.

As I said before, Griffin is from the Roberto Fiore school of fascist terrorism. But you think he's a fine democrat undoubtedly

[Last_Knight]

Did I say we were outnumbered now? No, I didn't. In 2020 it is predicted we will. And anyway, you're going off official figures which are said to always be altered by 10% in the governments favour, at the very least. The amount of people coming into this country we don't know about is also huge, 200,000 every year since 1995 it is predicted. That's 200,000 every year that won't be on your 10%. In some places in Britain whites are already outnumbered.

What has the terrorists we have encountered in the past got do with anything? Should we except new Islamic terrorists because we had ones in the past. And anyway, that's not the only problem, since I know that most are not terrorists, although the potentional for anyone to be one is always there.
Over-population, this is an island, just like Japan. Japan, is over populated there are places that are just like cupboards for people to sleep in. It is so cramped people in Tokyo have to wear face masks from the pollution. Even with just whites this place would be over-populated, I don't want millions more in this country, more people will cause more problems no matter their race.

Being born in Britain is no claim to 'Britishness' is a white English man born in Pakistan, a pakistani? No. Is amazing how you can claim your heritage to this country when Middle-Eastern and African are not tolerate of white intervention on a peaceful level. Look at Rhodesia, I'm sorry...Zimbabwae.

We are in need of tradesmen the country says, no we're not. We have our own, but they are all unemployed because some 'tradesman' from Romania has the job.

(I've edited some of this, L-K. I'm perfectly willing to allow this debate to continue but I'll thank you to keep your more unpleasant comments to yourself - V)

[Edited by voltaire on 29th March 2004 at 07:27]

[voltaire]

No, you said that British people "will soon be" outnumbered. Quite how the number of non-whites is supposed to rise from 10% to 50%+ in the next 16 years is beyond me, so you'll forgive me if I don't withdraw my comments... whose stats are you relying on anyway?

Yes, I would think that a White Pakistani is a Pakistani. Similarly, I think that Linford Christie is British - although his ancestry is outside the UK and he isn't white. Believing that Britishness is defined by whiteness is wrong on so many levels that we could open a whole new thread on it, although it is duly noted that it's an attitude held by the BNP amongst others.


V

[Last_Knight]

Next time you edit a post point out which part you edited, since I don't recall putting any offensive language in that post.

I got the figures off our nice government. In any case, I don't believe that being an English man is being white, it's being of English history spanning generations, I wouldn't accept a French White over an English white, I don't care about colour. In any case, this place is over populated with all the different white races. We shouldn't be having immigration of anyone, this place is over-populated.

10% - 50%, how can you say that is 10% now, that is only off the census and of that not everyone in the country is on records or legal, so you could never get everyone.

[voltaire]

I think you're well aware of the passage that I removed. As I say, I'm quite happy to continue this debate nevertheless.

As to the business about figures, perhaps you could give a url for these government figures that say whites will be a minority across the UK by 2020? I've never heard of them, but then I'm usually somewhat sceptical about government figures

As for the census, how come you're prepared to cite figures allegedly put forward by the government in one breath, and then denounce a census prepared by government employees in the next? In any case, it isn't just the census that gives the 10% figure; most of the consensus falls around or about that figure amongst serious social scientists. There is variance, but not much.

V

[Last_Knight]

I can denounce the Government figures on the 10% because they are purely on what has been counted and since the amount of illegal immigrants is supposed to be 200,000 a year since 1995 I suspect that the counted government figures aren't right. I can safely say that the 200,000 figure is wrong, for you can never be right on something like that, but the question is, which way are they wrong? I suspect they are putting 200,000 in as a lower figure to the true one. After all with recent screw ups the government 'accidently' did they wouldn't increase the estimates.

I can assure you I don't know what passage you're talking about. If it was offensive, I apologise, but I honestly don't know what you're talking about.


On a lighter note, after doing more research into Facism I have discovered that calling the BNP facist because it has 'racial discrimination' is also wrong. Facism was a political ideal created by Mussolini, this did not contain racial discrimination nor did it contain anti-semetism. The facism people believe they know about was an alteration of the original facism, the alteration was made by no other than Hitler. Hitler forced Mussolini to become anti-semite but the original Facist doctrine mentioned nothing of racial driscrimination.

[voltaire]

Both regimes were fascist - the term "fascist", like "socialist" and "capitalist" can cover a vast array of different regimes, but ones with a common root.

Similarly, say, you could draw a vast array of differences between France and Cuba in the 1980s, although both were run by "socialist" presidents (Mitterand and Castro).

I therefore don't necessarily think that the application of a term like "fascist" to one facet of a phenomenon (say the MSI in Italy) reduces its applicability to another (like the NSDAP in Germany).

V

[Shevchenko]

I think we should recognise the historical distaste for extremist politics among the English Working Classes.
Communism never took off except amongst the middle and upper classes, while Moseley's fascists got the living daylights beaten out of them by the Cockneys.

The BNP are targeting the poor in the hope that their legitimate concerns over immigration will turn into irrational support for the BNP.
Never going to work.

The middle-classes, in contrast, gave us George Bernard Shaw and his complicity in Genocide, Tony Blair and his love for Kosovan terrorists and then US war crimes, Barbara Castle with her denials of Stalin's purges, the Socialists and their love of mass-murderer Tito and so on and so forth.

I think poor people have too much real life to worry about - they probably don't have the time to become enthusiastic cheerleaders for oppression.

[voltaire]

Actually, the old CPGB did have a predominantly working class base, especially in the post war period. Similarly, the BNP's major support bases today are in deprived communities in the Midlands and North. Whether that's a good or a bad thing to say for the working class is another matter, however

V

[Shevchenko]

Originally posted by voltaire
Actually, the old CPGB did have a predominantly working class base, especially in the post war period. Similarly, the BNP's major support bases today are in deprived communities in the Midlands and North. Whether that's a good or a bad thing to say for the working class is another matter, however

V

Yes, but most of the UK is working class and both CPGB's and BNP's support base was insignificant to the point of being pathetic, especially when compared to our cultured European neighbours.
There are more genuine Left & Right extremists at a Roma v Lazio derby than there are in the whole of England.

[Edited by Shevchenko on 11th April 2004 at 14:58]

[Last_Knight]

You can follow facisms way of doing things without being facist, following the ideals would make you facist, following its way of doing things i.e dictatorship wouldn't make you facist. And yes, I did say dictatorship since that's what is a vital part of facism as Mussolini the creator of the term gave us.

Pathetic...pathetic yes, 3 seats is pathetic, wait a minute...That's how the Nazi Party started...

[voltaire]

Unfortunately, the BNP have rather more than 3 seats, at least as far as council seats are concerned.

It's very sad that they've been gaining ground, but there it is.

V