Religion or the Bible?

Reading many of the messages that all of you nice people have left in different categories of this web, I have noticed that there is a confusion about religion, God and the Bible. Let me explain:
I see people blaming God for many things that men have done in the name of religion, is this correct and does God approve of what they do?
God set us here on this earth and gave us his word (the Bible) to help us live a fulfilling life full of wonderful experiences. Man invented religion, not God. When Jesus came on this earth, he condemned the religious leaders of his time for "invalidating God's word with their traditions". The traditions of men have become religions, some based on part of the Bible and some others based on other writings. It is normal that people are fed up with religions when one consider all the hurt and damages that men have done to men over the years. Why take God's name as an excuse to do bad things? Because in general people have been more receptive of a message supposedly received from God instructing them to do this or that, but really was it God who was instructing them to kill? No. The crusades, the inquisition, the wars between catholics and protestants, the burning at the stake of people who read the Bible or who posessed one, etc... All these things were N O T directed by God, but desired by men to further their own selfish desires for power and/or money.
Please stop blaming God for the evil man does and start recognizing that He gave us a beautiful earth with everything to sustain our lives, food, water etc...
If the earth is so poluted today and if there is so much crime and hatred, it is due to men's selfishness, not God.

[Johan_Meyer]

All I can say is Amen. I totally agree!

God bless!

[Rikbe]

Originally posted by Panchita
Reading many of the messages that all of you nice people have left in different categories of this web, I have noticed that there is a confusion about religion, God and the Bible. Let me explain:
I see people blaming God for many things that men have done in the name of religion, is this correct and does God approve of what they do?
God set us here on this earth and gave us his word (the Bible) to help us live a fulfilling life full of wonderful experiences. Man invented religion, not God. When Jesus came on this earth, he condemned the religious leaders of his time for "invalidating God's word with their traditions". The traditions of men have become religions, some based on part of the Bible and some others based on other writings. It is normal that people are fed up with religions when one consider all the hurt and damages that men have done to men over the years. Why take God's name as an excuse to do bad things? Because in general people have been more receptive of a message supposedly received from God instructing them to do this or that, but really was it God who was instructing them to kill? No. The crusades, the inquisition, the wars between catholics and protestants, the burning at the stake of people who read the Bible or who posessed one, etc... All these things were N O T directed by God, but desired by men to further their own selfish desires for power and/or money.
Please stop blaming God for the evil man does and start recognizing that He gave us a beautiful earth with everything to sustain our lives, food, water etc...
If the earth is so poluted today and if there is so much crime and hatred, it is due to men's selfishness, not God.

I do not blame God for the atrocities done in his name. I can not blame something that does not exist.
Religion is as a gun. It does not kill itself, but is used to kill.
What religion does is keeping people in ignorance. Science and progress have always been a treat for religion because it has rational explanations for nature and existence.
So all belief in a god is the enemy of humanity.

Hello Rikbe, long time no hear! You are very right about religions, didn't Karl Marx say that religion was the opium of the people? But, if you believe that God does not exist, you fall in the category which the Bible describes as "ungodly men". Everything depends upon the believes of people. If you have a Bible home, or if you know someone who has one, please ask to borrow it and check the book of Romans, chapter 1, verses 18 to 23. It says in short:"For God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppresing the truth in an unrighteous way, because what may be known about God is manifest to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creations onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so they are inexcusable, because although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things."
People say many things about God, but when they get in an accident or in an earthquake, the first thing they do is call on that God they supposedly don't believe to save them. Thanks Rikbe for listening.

[Rikbe]

Marx was not wrong in everything, even monkeys can do something smart sometimes.

"Ungodly men"? Sounds better than "Atheists". More understandable.
But it could also be called "above superstition men", the "rational men", the "men with both their feet on the ground".

I don't have a bible, and I know nobody who has one. I started once to read the thing on the web but became bored before I finished the "Creation". But it is amusing, only I don't have the time for it.

The same for quotations people love to post so prodigal here and on other forums, instead of posting their own opinions. But maybe they don't have any and are doomed to repeat the things that other people wrote over and over again.

Since I discovered there is no God, I never had one moment of doubt, not in sickness, not in despair, not in a life threatening situation. I will die without any prayer.
It is very amusing that you think that death would make me change my opinions.

Quotations about the "wrath of God" are used to express the wrath of the writer when he/she runs out of arguments. It is a "civilized" way for saying "f*ck you, you sob".

[Rikbe]

Panchita, now I remember you, you are the one that called me "young" and "unexperienced". LOL

Hello Rikbe! I have read many of your messages and even though I don't agree with all of them because I do have my own opinion, I recognize that many of the things you say make sense. Not everybody should have the same opinion, can you imagine how boring the world would be?
If you don't believe in God, it is your opinion and the opinion of many people. I believe what Romans chapter 1 says and I am convinced that God exists and has created all the marvelous things around us. I have no excuse, I see it, I thought of it and am convinced. If you are not and do not want to see it, it is your decision and becomes your opinion. It's fine, I won't argue with you about it, just remember it on the last day of your life. (I did not mean anything about death). Nobody is obliged to believe anything they don't want, neither are you Rikbe. If I called you "young" and "inexperienced", maybe I was right and maybe I was wrong and it is not important for me, but for you to decide and act upon.
I have never wanted to insult you or hurt your feelings and if I did, I apologized. Friends?

[Rikbe]

Originally posted by Panchita
Hello Rikbe! I have read many of your messages and even though I don't agree with all of them because I do have my own opinion, I recognize that many of the things you say make sense. Not everybody should have the same opinion, can you imagine how boring the world would be?
If you don't believe in God, it is your opinion and the opinion of many people. I believe what Romans chapter 1 says and I am convinced that God exists and has created all the marvelous things around us. I have no excuse, I see it, I thought of it and am convinced. If you are not and do not want to see it, it is your decision and becomes your opinion. It's fine, I won't argue with you about it, just remember it on the last day of your life. (I did not mean anything about death). Nobody is obliged to believe anything they don't want, neither are you Rikbe. If I called you "young" and "inexperienced", maybe I was right and maybe I was wrong and it is not important for me, but for you to decide and act upon.
I have never wanted to insult you or hurt your feelings and if I did, I apologized. Friends?

Well, I did not expect this. Ok, friends. My feelings are not that easily hurt.

I don't remember exactly why I stopped believing. It is such a long time ago and it wa a gradual process that took over 10 years. I think I just found it illogical. Since it has never been much of a question anymore till I started to read this and similar forums. I became irritated by the conceited tone of some religious people, mostly Americans.

One of the illogical things is what you mention: that God created all those marvelous things around us. If he created this, he also created the ugly things around us. If he created good, he also created evil. If you say: no no, that's the Devil, it means that besides God there is another entity that has the same, or almost the same powers. Then we are no longer talking of monotheism but of pantheism. Christians also have a few more: Christ and the Holy Spirit. And than a bunch of angles. Some sects also have Saints, one for every purpose and every day. Someone must have thought: "A Saint a day keeps the doctor away", let's make some.
For me there are just too much absurdities and contradictions.

If you like that kind of discussion, take a look at: http://www.russia.com/forums/showthr...1&pagenumber=1
http://www.russia.com/forums/showthr...?threadid=8583

Hi Rikbe! Nice to hear you so mellow one in a while (I'm joking). I understand why you feel the way you do when you see all the crimes and bad things going on on the planet. You see Rikbe, if you had not fallen asleep while reading the first few chapters of the Bible (you said so yourself), you would have noticed that right at the begining (chapter 6 of Genesis) it says that one of the very powerful angels that God had made, before He made the earth and everything in it, rebelled against Him and desired to have the worship due to God. He tried to influence all the other angels to do bad and 1/3 of them fell because they desired to have sex with the beautiful women of the earth. Everything bad started with the first angel who rebelled, which the Bible calls "satan the devil, the original serpent". You know, it is a very long story, but I am glad you do have an opened mind and are willing to investigate. It is so easy to get sick of it all when you see what is going on in the name of God and religions and much easier to shut our mind and believe it does not exists. More power to you!

[Rikbe]

I am not the ogre you think I am.

Do you know that Greek mythology has the same story about rebellion against Zeus by the Titans? Also various children were born of Zeus with and mortal women, just like the Christ. I think the Bible was inspired by other and older pagan religions.

Assuming the story is true, how can you be sure the good ones won? As it are always the winners who write history, the winners are always the good guys.

I didn't know the uprising was about sex, this means that the angels are male. Why should have angels a sex, they are not intended for procreation. For this you need also female angels, and that give me the image of Heaven being one big sex orgy.
Someone should have told me that earlier, I never liked the picture I had before: eating rice milk with golden spoons.
I hate rice milk.

Hello Rikbe, It's not easy to make a long story short, but I'll try. The battle is still not finished, but according to the Bible, in the end the good ones will win. The thing is not as simple as that for the rest of the story. The angels were created perfect, but were neither male nor female, they were spirit creatures who had so much power that they could materialize in human bodies, as well as do powerful things (one angel killed 185.000 soldiers in one night). When they saw that the daughters of men were very beautiful and decided to have sex with them, they actually came down on the earth, materialized in human bodies and had sex with them. The result was that many children were born of this obscene relationship. Because these 1/2 human 1/2 demons were extremely mean to the rest of people on earth, the Bible says that the heart of man was bad all the time and God decided to wipe out from the earth all those half breed with their mothers and everybody else who was as bad as they were. This is when the deluge comes in. Only 8 persons survived. After this event, those people started multiplying and filling the earth again.
Yes I am aware of the mythology, but did you know that in almost all the tribes and people of the earth they tell a legend which has to do with the deluge? Now, the mythology came after the Bible's account of this rebellion happened in heaven and the legends about a deluge also come after the account of it was written in the Bible. Have I answered your question? Let me know if you are interested in more details, or if the answer was incomplete, O.K.?

[Rikbe]

Hello Panchita,

I didn't know these details. I always liked legends and mythologies but I never believed in it. (Well, I believed in Peter Pan and Santa Claus when I was a kid. )

A few questions.
- If they were created perfect, how could they become corrupted?
- One angel killed 185 000 soldiers. So there must have been armies of more than hundreds of thousand soldiers, probably millions. Pretty expensive to maintain, the world had to be very populated, what demands a highly evolved civilization. Atlantis? Mu? Gondola? Archeologists never found traces of it.
- This is probably a very classic question: where did all the water came from to flood the whole world and where did it go?
-If people and animals only survived in the arch, why are there species in Australia and the Americas you can not find in the Middle East. How did they survive?
-Creation supposes that we are created as we are. How come that archeologists find only fossils of creatures that are different of us?

Hey Rikbe! Would you believe I still have a twinge of melancholy when I think of Peter Pan? Yes, but in Belgium were I was raised (a long time ago!!!) we did not believe in Santa Claus, we had someone else called St.Nicholas on the 6th of December. Did not believe in him long however.
First question, first answer. King Senacherib of Asiria was about to attack Jerusalem with his army when this killing occured. 2nd. question, 2nd. answer. In the very first chapter of Genesis (the Bible), it explains how God created the heavens and the earth. It says: "God separated the waters and said 'let there be an expanse (a space) between the waters and the waters'". So we had water on the earth, a empty space above the earth (what we see as the sky or heavens) and water above that expanse, which we could not see and was retained up there by the forces of gravity. Now if you read the account of the deluge, it says that God opened the doors (not literally) of the heavens and the water fell with all its weight on the earth. If you read some accounts written by scientists, they say that for some reason unknown to them (because they don't believe in the deluge) mountains were pushed in the earth and at other places where there was no mountains, some appeared. Have you ever heard of the mammouths they found with food in their mouth and who died while they were eating? Yes, the result of the sudden force of the water falling on the earth. The result of this water falling and not being up there is that today we have less protection from the sun. Question and answer #3. All the animals survived in the arc, but inmediately when the door was opened they spread throughout the earth. They all went to different places and started multiplying, Many species have already been extinct in some parts of the earth or in the whole earth. The dinosaurs were probably already extinct before the deluge, but we are not sure.
What scientists have found, is fossils of all different animals, some of which may have existed before and which were already extinct by the time men started to be interested in this kind of research.
Oops, I noticed I forgot to answer your very first question, I was so shaken thinking of Peter Pan !!!
Why would anybody perfect become corrupted? Because they want to. The book of James in the Bible explains that we are tempted by our own desire. If we dwell on the bad thoughts, this desire gives fruit to badness. You know, even us as human we can chose to do right or wrong, so they too could decide what they wanted and chose wickedness. God created us with our own free will, this shows that God is kind and is not a dictator. He does not oblige anybody to do his will, but waits for people to do it of their own free will, for love and appreciation of Him.
Oh boy, I would have to re-read this whole thing, but I will just hope I have answered everything. Please forgive me if I didn't, I am so thirsty I need to get a big bottle of water (we have 110 degres far. today)

[Rikbe]

If Peter Pan has a meaning for you, you must not be very young anymore. For my children he means nothing.
I assume you know Bob et Bobette, Spirou and TinTin.

I forgot you lived in Belgium, that is why I said Santa, because St. Nicolas is unknown in USA (I assume you live there). So you lived in Wallony or Brussels.

Nice story, but it is only a story. We know now that the world is not created that way.
We also know that water can not exist in space, it would evaporate due to absence of gravity to keep the molecules together, unless it would be frozen a 0 degrees Kelvin.
To put billions of tons of water on the earth from space would rather cause an explosion than a rain. ALso 40 days of rain is not enough to flood the earth. As I don't remember my mathematics from high school, I can not calculate the quantity needed but I think something like the moon would maybe be enough. The mass of that would cause such disasters that everything would be destroyed, Noah included.

If you read some accounts written by scientists, they say that for some reason unknown to them (because they don't believe in the deluge) mountains were pushed in the earth and at other places where there was no mountains, some appeared.

Where did you read that? Mountains and seas are formed by the movements of tectonic plates. It is not unknown at all.

Have you ever heard of the mammoths they found with food in their mouth and who died while they were eating? Yes, the result of the sudden force of the water falling on the earth. The result of this water falling and not being up there is that today we have less protection from the sun.

Yes, I have heard of the frozen Mammoths found in Siberia. The were frozen, not flooded.
If it was water or ice, they would not have been conserved, they would have been crushed as a pancake and be decomposed by the water and bacteria's in it.

The water is no longer up there? Were did it go? There is not enough water on the earth to cause a world-wide flood.


Question and answer #3. All the animals survived in the arc, but inmediately when the door was opened they spread throughout the earth. They all went to different places and started multiplying, Many species have already been extinct in some parts of the earth or in the whole earth. The dinosaurs were probably already extinct before the deluge, but we are not sure.

How did they spread? There were already seas. How did kangaroos get in Australia?

What scientists have found, is fossils of all different animals, some of which may have existed before and which were already extinct by the time men started to be interested in this kind of research.

Archaeologists can put dates on fossils and they discovered that there were animals long before the were humans. Doesn't the Bible tell that all were created at the same time?

Why would anybody perfect become corrupted? Because they want to. The book of James in the Bible explains that we are tempted by our own desire. If we dwell on the bad thoughts, this desire gives fruit to badness. You know, even us as human we can chose to do right or wrong, so they too could decide what they wanted and chose wickedness. God created us with our own free will, this shows that God is kind and is not a dictator. He does not oblige anybody to do his will, but waits for people to do it of their own free will, for love and appreciation of Him.

But if creatures have bad thoughts and bad desires they are not perfect.
God is kind and not a dictator? The contrary, if he had created us as ants, without free will, without a choice to make, we would be perfectly happy because we would know no better. So he must be sadistic.

Oh boy, I would have to re-read this whole thing, but I will just hope I have answered everything. Please forgive me if I didn't, I am so thirsty I need to get a big bottle of water (we have 110 degrees far. today)

I think you dd answer everything.
110? Here it was only 16°C and rain and wind. I don't know how much it is in F., somewhere below 70.

No, I am not very young physically, only at heart! And yes, Bob et Bobette, Spirou, Tintin and all of them are very well known to me. I actually have a dog named Bob and one Bobette and I love the Marsupilami.
Yes I lived in Belgium many years, in Africa and Perou too and now I'm stuck here because of my husband's business and means of living.
I have read all those scientific accounts in 2 different books years ago, unfortunatly I moved since and do not have them anymore, nor do I remember the titles, sorry. If anyone out there has read those books, please help to give Rikbe an answer. Thank you.
The angels were created perfect, with a free will. A free will is good and does not take away from their perfection. To think things is not bad, to dwell on thoughts and turn them to bad thoughts is what is wrong. If you dwell on those thoughts enough, to the point of acting on them and doing something bad, you will be sinning or falling short of God's righteous requirements. Ex.:I go to a friend's house and while he or she is in the bathroom, I see a very large sum of money on the kitchen counter. I think "wow, what a lot of money" nothing wrong in that. Now if I keep thinking I'd like to have some of that for me and start thinking how I could take some of it and take it, that is where I go wrong and do something bad.
God is love, the prove is that He not only created the beautiful universe for our enjoyment, but the earth with everything in it. He could have created us without seeing in colour, or without the sense of smell, or without hearing. All these things are not a necessity to live, but He decided to do it so we could enjoy life. He gives us the rain and sunshine so we can eat and drink, that is another prove of his love for us.
Yes, I live in a hot hot place. 110º F is about 44 º C. We have had no rain for about 114 days straight.