this letter dedicated to Rikbe

[Shenlong]

Yeah you can tell me that a million times but you still wont be proving that God is like that.

How do you know that God doesnt know that he was created a more complex and cryptic chain of God-producing Gods?

How can you say that God is uncreated because he "just is"

Where is your reason and logic in saying so?

[Shenlong]

Except it hasn't been rewritten. There is no evidence. Why would a people who believed that if they changed the Bible, God would smite them, change the Bible?


Because what would the world think about them believing in a God that is wrong. They want more people to believe in their religion so therefore they correct the errors to gain credibility.

[Rikbe]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan

Or it could be because they have a genuine, familial relationship with a deity.

I am discussing this since several years and compared what Christians experience in their "relationship with God", and what I experiece with experiments with meditation based on Yoga and Autogenic training. Apparently there is no difference except that I experience it without believing in God and without prayers.

Natural selection is certainly a real phenomenon. But it has not yet been established that it is the only force involved in evolution. To me, irreduceably complex systems and a punctuated equilibrium imply interference from an intelligent designer.

I think it is impossible to prove it is the only force, but as long as no one can prove and if there is no indacation there is, it is logical to asume there is not.

Except it hasn't been rewritten. There is no evidence. Why would a people who believed that if they changed the Bible, God would smite them, change the Bible?

The same reasoning, there is no evidence it is not. But from psychological experiences, it is impossible it has not been modified during transcriptions. Naturally, unless a God kept his eyes on it. As I don't believe this, I conclude it must have been modified.

Logic establishes that theism is a tenable philosophical system, and that there is credible evidence of interference from above. Faith takes off from there. You should read Fides et Ratio by John Paul II. It is available at http://www.vatican.va

From what I observed from human behaviour and train of thought it is very logical that people believe in God, but not that the existance of God is logical.

Mohammed may have benefitted materially from his claims to be a prophet. However, most of the Old Testament prophets got nothing but crap for telling people God's word. Also, Jesus was dirt poor His entire life. He devoted Himself to teaching and charity. Pure altruism. He even gave up His life. The apostles followed suit. They gave up their entire lives to preach the Gospel, and many were martyred.
One would expect a charlatan to renounce his claim to divine revalation if people were going to kill him for it.
You can't claim that people who live a life of poverty and service in the name of their religion are "in it for the money."

My mistake to write "materially benefit" only, I was indeed thinking of Muhammed at that moment (I had a discussion about with a Muslim in another forum at that moment). But there is also psychological/emotional benefit, so much that people are willing to die for it. You don't have to go back in the past for it. See Muslim suicide terrorists these days. In their own eyes and in the eyes of many Muslims, they are on the same level as prophets.

I agree. Religious parents should explain to their children the logic of why God told so, when it is discernable.

"When it is discernable", that is the problem. Undiscernable logic gives me an upset feeling in my stomach.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Shenlong
How can you say that God is uncreated because he "just is"

How can you say that matter is uncreated because it "just is?" Matter being eternal would violate entropy. The universe is progressing from an orderly to a disordely state, heading ultimately towards a "heat death." Where did the initial order come from? Also, if matter was eternal, and an infinite amount of time had already passed, then the universe should already be at the heat death.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Shenlong
Because what would the world think about them believing in a God that is wrong. They want more people to believe in their religion so therefore they correct the errors to gain credibility.

Sorry, the Rabbinic tradition has always treated Scripture with reverence. The prophecies haven't been substantively changed since they were first uttered.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Rikbe
The same reasoning, there is no evidence it is not. But from psychological experiences, it is impossible it has not been modified during transcriptions.

Well, it is a proven fact that the Old Testament hasn't been edited since 150 B.C. And since the same type of people were transcribing it before 150 B.C. as after, I think it's very likely that the Bible books we have today are almost exactly the same as the originals.

Originally posted by Rikbe
But there is also psychological/emotional benefit, so much that people are willing to die for it. You don't have to go back in the past for it. See Muslim suicide terrorists these days. In their own eyes and in the eyes of many Muslims, they are on the same level as prophets.

Hypothetical situation. A charlatan decides to make up a religion to benefit himelf. The people who believe his story and join his religion might then become psychologically attached. They might even proclaim that they are willing to die for the religion. However, the founder himself never becomes psychologically attached, because he knows full well that his story is a load of crap. If he himself were ever called to die for the religion he founded, he most certainly would not.

That's how you know that Jesus and the Prophets of old were sincere. If they weren't getting messages from God, they wouldn't have kept up the act, because it wasn't bringing them any rewards. If Jesus knew that his claims to deity were false, he wouldn't have died rather than renounce them.

Originally posted by Rikbe
"When it is discernable", that is the problem. Undiscernable logic gives me an upset feeling in my stomach.

Well, Jesus said that we must become trusting like children if we want to inherit the kingdom of God. Take some spiritual Peptol-Bismol.

[Rikbe]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
Well, it is a proven fact that the Old Testament hasn't been edited since 150 B.C. And since the same type of people were transcribing it before 150 B.C. as after, I think it's very likely that the Bible books we have today are almost exactly the same as the originals.

I would only believe if I could compare both.

Hypothetical situation. A charlatan decides to make up a religion to benefit himelf. The people who believe his story and join his religion might then become psychologically attached. They might even proclaim that they are willing to die for the religion. However, the founder himself never becomes psychologically attached, because he knows full well that his story is a load of crap. If he himself were ever called to die for the religion he founded, he most certainly would not.

That's how you know that Jesus and the Prophets of old were sincere. If they weren't getting messages from God, they wouldn't have kept up the act, because it wasn't bringing them any rewards. If Jesus knew that his claims to deity were false, he wouldn't have died rather than renounce them.

I am sure this hypothetical situation has happened, and more than once.
You assume that someone's mind is tational and does not change. Human personality is not rational.
The man in your hypothetical situation will maybe not become addicted to his lies, but can very well become to the benefits of it. Itis also possible he finish to believe his own lies.

Plenty of people die because they are addicted to the most crazy things: lifestyle, sports, kick. The automobile racer who wants to stay first, the mountaneer who wants to climb higher and higher mountains, stuntmen and so on. They are addicted to what they do and will not stop even if they know it will kill them. The bussiness men who jumps out of the window because there can't accept to be ruined.

Well, Jesus said that we must become trusting like children if we want to inherit the kingdom of God. Take some spiritual Peptol-Bismol.

Children are easily more manipuladed. Religion is about keeping people from growing up and think logically.

I don't have a spiritual diarrhoea, but you could use some spiritual Metadon.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Rikbe
I would only believe if I could compare both.

The benefit of the doubt goes to the text, not the critic.

Originally posted by Rikbe
You assume that someone's mind is tational and does not change. Human personality is not rational.
The man in your hypothetical situation will maybe not become addicted to his lies, but can very well become to the benefits of it. Itis also possible he finish to believe his own lies.

I only assume that Jesus' mind was rational, since he gave us best moral teachings in history.

Originally posted by Rikbe
Children are easily more manipuladed. Religion is about keeping people from growing up and think logically.

It is entirely possible to think logically within the framework of religious belief.

[Shenlong]

Matter can not be destroyed nor can it be created; only changed. To do other wise would be defying the laws of physics. If this property is true then it would mean all matter is eternal and defeat the whole purpose of having a God. The only way solid matter can originate is through energy such as the big bang. But where did this energy come from?

There isnt a real way to know for sure but this is just my personal philosophy; All the matter in the universe and the universe itself is eternal and always existed just because it always existed and you can not deny it's existence awhile on the other hand there is no real proof of god's existence. Existence exists because it is the opposite of nonexistence/nothing and nothing in a way exists but at the same time cant exist because if it did it wouldnt be nothing but something. Very much like Taoism or Karma; Not God but a natural force that implies the opposite of everything. The opposite of Nonexistence is existence and vice versa. There is my logic/philosophy in saying that matter always existed and why it is illogical to say that God has always existed because we know that matter exists but we dont have true proof to know for sure God exists. So if we cant know for sure that God exists then where is the logic in skipping the step of proving his existence to applying that he is eternal? Awhile matter is evidence within itself that it exists so therefore we can move on to the second step of applying it the property of eternal.

In other words, You cant say God always existed if you cant even prove this existence to begin with.

If he is existent then he would have to made up of something and something is matter wether it be solid, liquid, gas, energy or some unknown matter. Because if he was not made up of something then he simply wouldnt exist. So where did that something that he is made out of come from?

Theist goal is to attempt to explain the origin of everything by the use of something/someone yet that something/someone is part of everything and they fail to explain that something and by failing to explain that something they fail to explain everything.

It is also logic that states that even a painter must have paint in order to paint a picture.

If he was to write a book to us then why didnt he explain all these questions so we would have a better understanding of the enviroment he put is in?

Plus dont you think that if God exists he would be kind to his creatures? If that is so then explain cancer. Is it a form of punishment? What about those loyal christians? Do you think they are immune to cancer?

[Shenlong]

Even with prophecies the bible is weighed down by the illogical, farfetched, physic-defying stunts performed in there that have been proven today to be impossible (I.E: Openning Oceans, Walking on water, Ressurection, Whale Virginal Birth, Indigestion, etc.)

The reason why it was most likely just writtened by man alone and changed in the future was because if you think about it actually having a God communicate with one of his creatures and inspiring him to write a book is rare awhile anybody can easily make it up or change it. Also around that time printing wasnt very common and the majority were illiterate. That is untill the renaisance.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Shenlong
You cant say God always existed if you cant even prove this existence to begin with.

You can't prove God's existence, but you can certainly show it to be probable. And if you accept the Bible as divinely inspired based on it's predictive prophecies, you can certainly say that God is eternal, as the Bible says that He's eternal.

Originally posted by Shenlong
If he is existent then he would have to made up of something and something is matter wether it be solid, liquid, gas, energy or some unknown matter. Because if he was not made up of something then he simply wouldnt exist. So where did that something that he is made out of come from?

"God is spirit." (John 4:24) He is not made of matter.

Originally posted by Shenlong
It is also logic that states that even a painter must have paint in order to paint a picture.

But if that painter is omnipotent then he can will the paint into being from nothing.

Originally posted by Shenlong
If he was to write a book to us then why didnt he explain all these questions so we would have a better understanding of the enviroment he put is in?

The book gives us everything we need to know in order to be saved. I'm glad that God gave us the intellect and the opportinity to figure out the other mysteries of life for ourselves. The world (and philosophy) would be very boring without mysteries.

Originally posted by Shenlong
Plus dont you think that if God exists he would be kind to his creatures? If that is so then explain cancer. Is it a form of punishment? What about those loyal christians? Do you think they are immune to cancer?

You're going back to Theodicy. As I have said, this is a complex problem and you'll probably have to read a book about it. I recommend "The Problem of Pain" by C. S. Lewis and "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Rabbi Kushner.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Shenlong
Even with prophecies the bible is weighed down by the illogical, farfetched, physic-defying stunts performed in there that have been proven today to be impossible (I.E: Openning Oceans, Walking on water, Ressurection, Whale Virginal Birth, Indigestion, etc.)

They have been proven to be impossible within the realm of physics. However, an omnipotent, creator God would have the power to suspend the laws of physics and perform such "physics-defying stunts" any time He felt like it. That is why if you accept the possibility that something exists outside the bounds of natural law, miracles seem entirely plausible.

"But if we admit God, must we admit a miracle? Indeed, indeed, you have no security against it. That is the bargain. Theology says to you in effect, 'Admit God and with him the risk of a few miracles, and I in turn will ratify your faith in uniformity as regards the overwhelming majority of events.' The philosophy which forbids you to make uniformity absolute is also the philosophy which offers you solid grounds for believing it to be general, to be almost absolute. The Being who threatens nature's claim to omnipotence confirms her in her lawful occasions. . . The alternative is really much worse. Try to make nature absolute and you find that her uniformity is not even probable. . . You get the deadlock as in Hume. Theology offers you a working arrangement, which leaves the scientist free to continue his experiments and the Christian to continue his prayers."
C. S. Lewis, Miracles

[Shenlong]

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
You can't prove God's existence, but you can certainly show it to be probable. And if you accept the Bible as divinely inspired based on it's predictive prophecies, you can certainly say that God is eternal, as the Bible says that He's eternal.

It is still an uncertainty none the less awhile we know matter exists.

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
"God is spirit." (John 4:24) He is not made of matter.

Same thing; He is made up of something and something is still part of everything. The goal in theology is to explain the origin of everything yet fail to explain the origin of that something that God is made out of hence failing to explain everything. Its like going back to the first step of proving the origin of life except instead of universal life it is God.

We are inhabitants of a habitat (Universe) created by an inhabitant of X?

Why not just have a habitat instead of going back to the first step?

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
But if that painter is omnipotent then he can will the paint into being from nothing.

Thats like saying 0+1=2

0=Nothing
1=Creator
2= Creator+The Produced Universe

I thought the point in theology was to explain the origin of everything logically?

Here's the true equation:
0+1=1

0=Nothing
1=Creator

I dont know about you but no matter how omnipotent a God is I will never find that logical and if I do not find it logical I see no reason in believing it true.

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
The book gives us everything we need to know in order to be saved. I'm glad that God gave us the intellect and the opportinity to figure out the other mysteries of life for ourselves. The world (and philosophy) would be very boring without mysteries.

I agree but he could have atleast gave us clues on where to find hard evidence for his existence so he wouldnt have to punish so many skeptics and have more people going in his plan. I think that would be the more intelligent decision.

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan
You're going back to Theodicy. As I have said, this is a complex problem and you'll probably have to read a book about it. I recommend "The Problem of Pain" by C. S. Lewis and "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Rabbi Kushner.

I probably wont have the time since I have to focus on schoolwork and making up credits

I got another question...

Wich existence would you prefer?

The mortal existence offered by the devil and accepted by Adam in wich you are able to speak, write, analyze music, rationalyze, discover, etc.

Or

The immortal existence that God intended for the human race in wich time haunts every weary soul and would not have any form of intelligence to do anything not even acknowledge the concept/theory of his own existence.

Personally I think that if the bible were true (Wich i highly believe it isnt) then the devil did us a good favor. And it is faulty judgment for a God to punish his every single one of his own new born creations for the crimes of a man long ago (AKA Original sin).

[Shenlong]

I think that the only way creation could be possible is if God is not spirit but rather and infinite amount of energy enabling the synthesis of all universal matter. But then where did that energy come from?

I guess we may never know

So many questions...
Only 1 life time

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by Shenlong
I dont know about you but no matter how omnipotent a God is I will never find that logical and if I do not find it logical I see no reason in believing it true.

Well, we have 3 choices. 1. An omnipotent God made something from nothing, 2. something made itself from nothing, or 3. something has always existed. I find 2 absurd and if 3 were true the universe should have reached its heat death a long time ago. Incidentally, many theologians do believe that God is made up of an infinite amount of energy.

Originally posted by Shenlong
I agree but he could have atleast gave us clues on where to find hard evidence for his existence so he wouldnt have to punish so many skeptics and have more people going in his plan. I think that would be the more intelligent decision.

Look back a few posts for evidence.

Originally posted by Shenlong
Wich existence would you prefer?

The mortal existence offered by the devil and accepted by Adam in wich you are able to speak, write, analyze music, rationalyze, discover, etc.

Or

The immortal existence that God intended for the human race in wich time haunts every weary soul and would not have any form of intelligence to do anything not even acknowledge the concept/theory of his own existence.

First off, you aren't accurately representing Adam and Eve's existence in paradise. However, you are correct that they had much less opportunity for free thought and intellectual pursuit than we do. Perhaps God intended the fall. After all, it was only by God's grace that the devil succeeded in tempting Eve. And God often allows bad things to happen so that good things may come of them. Well, now we can write, analyze, and discover, and by accepting God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ still recieve immortality.