Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by DruidSmith
He intended us to procreate geometrically and feed like locusts, to crowd each other until we die of starvation and other self-induced cause brought about by our uncontrolled procreation?

No, the average American uses up 200 times as much natural resources as an Indian or an Ethiopian. The world could potentially support many more people than live on it currently. God intended for us to lead simple, pious lives, not to be gluttonous, and to procreate until we filled te earth and He brought it to its consummation. Also, by the standards of biblical morality a far greater percentage of the population should be leading a life of celibacy.

Fear-x-x:

In living in celibacy, i.e. not getting married and not having children (not talking here about extramarital relationships), you are contradicting your human nature...It's like denying that you need to eat, visit the toilet, sleep...i.e. you are denying that a human being is feeble, and God didn't introduce such desires to us so as to torture us, it's all human-made rituals,

As said in Qur'an:

"Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors." (Al-Hadid, 27)

The last part shows the states of perversion that some Christian clerics have reached nowadays.....

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

So now we just get into a war of holy books? You quote the Qur'an where it says that celibacy is bad, and I quote the Bible where it says that celibacy is good? I have a feeling that neither of us is going to convince the other through this method.

[LucyD]

"Celibacy is superior to marriage in God's eyes, so there is nothing wrong with priests not having children."
______________________________

Paul says that celibacy is the better choice and makes clear that he is giving his opinion and not speaking for God. He says, "I do not have a command from the Lord, but I give my opinion..."
______________________________

"The sin of contraception consist of severing the bond between the unitive and the procreative ends of intercourse."
______________________________

Having been raised as a Protestant, I don't get that at all. What's that based on?

[DruidSmith]

A little Monty Python...

It's interesting that this same God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims tells some people they must be celibate, others that they must procreate, some that they must not use contraceptives, and some that they may, that some should be educated on conception and birth and that others may not, and so on... It's a good thing God has so many messengers running around keeping it all straight...

[DruidSmith]

Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. -- Ambroise Bierce

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson

I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. -- Frederick Douglass

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. -- Buddha

One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn't require religion at all. -- Arthur Clarke

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. -- Gandhi

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by LucyD
Paul says that celibacy is the better choice and makes clear that he is giving his opinion and not speaking for God. He says, "I do not have a command from the Lord, but I give my opinion..."

And his opinion is correct. Celibacy is superior, but not mandatory for the faithful Christian.

Originally posted by LucyD
Having been raised as a Protestant, I don't get that at all. What's that based on?

God struck Onan dead for using the withdrawal method (Genesis 38:9-10). Also, Jesus commanded that we not separate what God has joined. God has joined the unitive and procreative ends of intercourse together, and contraception separates them.

For a more detailed case against contraception, see here:
http://www.omsoul.com/pdfs/K-WIC.pdf

[LucyD]

"And his opinion is correct. Celibacy is superior, but not mandatory for the faithful Christian."
____________________________

How do you know that Paul's opinion is correct? Paul, himself, doesn't say "this is right", he says its his opinion and he thinks he's right. Do you have any other instances to cite that back up Paul's opinion?

Also, reading in context, it seems that Paul's position on marriage is based on conditions at the time. Would he say the same for Christians living now?
_____________________________

"God struck Onan dead for using the withdrawal method" (Genesis 38:9-10).
_____________________________

"8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also."

Was it withdrawing, in and of itself, that was sinful; or disobeying a specific directive from God to "produce offspring for your brother"? Further, it seems that Oran's resistance had to do with his unwillingness to fulfill his duty to his brother, nothing else is suggested.
______________________________

"Also, Jesus commanded that we not separate what God has joined. God has joined the unitive and procreative ends of intercourse together, and contraception separates them."
______________________________

Isn't it the man and woman God joined together in marriage that isn't to be separated? It seems a bit of a stretch to extend that to eggs and sperm. Condoms and diaphragms simply prevent joining and do not separate what was joined. What's wrong with that?
______________________________

"So, this means a husband and wife, in their fifties and with her biological clock having run out of minutes, expressing their love for one another through the act of intercourse -- they are committing a mortal sin!"
______________________________

Perhaps they should be hoping for the miracle of a late in life pregnancy like Sarah and Abraham.

Are you telling me that you are thinking about scripture or moral implacations even at the hight of passion?? you gotta be kidden me! what do you do ,finish off with a big halleluiah? please...... Sex is the prime mover of what we are, how can you reduce it to such a clinical act? And if your trying to persuade others to your faith, you just put off about 90% of most young people. And there is no direct correlation to the female orgasm and reproduction,so why would god bother with that? Surly you most have had some other thoughts or motives during sex, than just scripture.....or reproduction.

[Edited by flybynight on 24th January 2004 at 12:53]

I wonder why would Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Issac, Ismael, and other prophets -peace be upon all of them- get married if they'd know that celibacy is better for them?

The Qur'an stated:

“Among His signs is that He created for you spouses of your own kind in order that you may repose to them in tranquility and He instilled in your hearts love and affection for one another; verily, in these are signs for those who reflect (on the nature of the reality).” (Ar-Rum: 21).

"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made `you nations and tribes that ye may know one another." (Al-Hujurat: 13)

The Philosophy of Marriage in Islam:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...hFatwaID=19352

group of three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet asking how the Prophet worshiped (Allah), and when they were informed about that, they considered their worship insufficient and said, “How can we attain the Prophet’s status, as his past and future sins have been forgiven!” Then one of them said, “I will offer Prayer throughout the night forever.” Another said, “I will fast throughout the year and will not break my fast.” The third said, “I will keep away from women and will not marry forever.” Allah’s Messenger came to them and said, “Are you the same people who said such-and-such? By Allah, I am more submissive to Allah and more afraid of Him than you; yet I fast and break my fast, I do sleep and I also marry women. So he who does not follow my tradition in religion, is not from me (not one of my followers).”

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...FatwaID=106042

[Fear_nam_Beanntan]

Originally posted by LucyD
How do you know that Paul's opinion is correct? Paul, himself, doesn't say "this is right", he says its his opinion and he thinks he's right. Do you have any other instances to cite that back up Paul's opinion?

Sure, but you won't find it in your Bible.

Wisdom of Solomon 3:13-4:2
Yes, blessed is she who, childless and undefiled, knew not transgression of the marriage bed; she shall bear fruit at the visitation of souls.
So also the eunuch whose hand wrought no misdeed, who held no wicked thoughts against the LORD- For he shall be given fidelity's choice reward and a more gratifying heritage in the LORD'S temple.
For the fruit of noble struggles is a glorious one; and unfailing is the root of understanding.
But the children of adulterers will remain without issue, and the progeny of an unlawful bed will disappear.
For should they attain long life, they will be held in no esteem, and dishonored will their old age be at last;
While should they die abruptly, they have no hope nor comfort in the day of scrutiny;
for dire is the end of the wicked generation.
Better is childlessness with virtue; for immortal is its memory: because both by God is it acknowledged, and by men.
When it is present men imitate it, and they long for it when it is gone; And forever it marches crowned in triumph, victorious in unsullied deeds of valor.

I also have the first centuries of Christian tradition behind me. Read any church father; they all revered celibacy.

Originally posted by LucyD
Also, reading in context, it seems that Paul's position on marriage is based on conditions at the time. Would he say the same for Christians living now?

Yes.

Was it withdrawing, in and of itself, that was sinful; or disobeying a specific directive from God to "produce offspring for your brother"? Further, it seems that Oran's resistance had to do with his unwillingness to fulfill his duty to his brother, nothing else is suggested.

The penalty for failing to produce children with your brother's widow was public humiliation, not death (Deuteronomy 25:5-9).

Isn't it the man and woman God joined together in marriage that isn't to be separated?

The principle extends to other things which God has joined together.

It seems a bit of a stretch to extend that to eggs and sperm. Condoms and diaphragms simply prevent joining and do not separate what was joined. What's wrong with that?

As I have said before, they seperate the unitive and procreative ends of intercourse, which were never meant to be seperated.

So, this means a husband and wife, in their fifties and with her biological clock having run out of minutes, expressing their love for one another through the act of intercourse -- they are committing a mortal sin!

No.

Contraception is allowed in Islam, for valid reasons however.

Q:Contraception: Permissible?

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...hFatwaID=40771

Q:Contraception for the Sake of Enjoyment

http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/en...hFatwaID=93564

1- Wasn't Mary PBUH the fruit of a blessed Marriage? and didn't she get immaculately conceived with Jesus Chrsit PBUH? This means that Jesus Christ is the fruit of distant marriages.

2- The wisdom of Solomon script elaborates more on adultery than marriage. God is merciful Fear, and didn't program us with those desires just to expose us to sins. A marital sexual relationship is a bless not an act of fealth, and on each time they get to fulfill each others desires, they get closer to God, who rather gave us 2 ways to tame ourselves: By well-doing (marriage, work honestly, using the knife to feed others) or wrong doing (adultery, theft, using the knife to kill)

3- Producing children with my brother's widow? and what if the man was impotent or couldn't have children? this puts this script under questioning whether it would be divine.

4- Divorce wouldn't be understood for a person who would never get married such as a priest, who wouldn't understand the necessity for couples to get divorced if living together couldn't be taken anymore.

Priests looked up for Jesus Chirst PBUH and wanted to immitate him by praising the states of celibacy over marriage. This have caused a lot of disturbance in relationships among people in the west as I might see. Some couples would live together in sin for years commiting adultery (which is logically God-forbidden) before getting married fearing that there is no divorce. Which do you think would be better?

Originally posted by Fear_nam_Beanntan

Sure, but you won't find it in your Bible.

Wisdom of Solomon 3:13-4:2
Yes, blessed is she who, childless and undefiled, knew not transgression of the marriage bed; she shall bear fruit at the visitation of souls.
So also the eunuch whose hand wrought no misdeed, who held no wicked thoughts against the LORD- For he shall be given fidelity's choice reward and a more gratifying heritage in the LORD'S temple.
For the fruit of noble struggles is a glorious one; and unfailing is the root of understanding.
But the children of adulterers will remain without issue, and the progeny of an unlawful bed will disappear.
For should they attain long life, they will be held in no esteem, and dishonored will their old age be at last;
While should they die abruptly, they have no hope nor comfort in the day of scrutiny;
for dire is the end of the wicked generation.
Better is childlessness with virtue; for immortal is its memory: because both by God is it acknowledged, and by men.
When it is present men imitate it, and they long for it when it is gone; And forever it marches crowned in triumph, victorious in unsullied deeds of valor.

I also have the first centuries of Christian tradition behind me. Read any church father; they all revered celibacy.

Yes.

The penalty for failing to produce children with your brother's widow was public humiliation, not death (Deuteronomy 25:5-9).

The principle extends to other things which God has joined together.

As I have said before, they seperate the unitive and procreative ends of intercourse, which were never meant to be seperated.

No.

[LucyD]

5 When brothers live together, and one of them dies childless, the dead man's wife shall not be allowed to marry an outsider. Her husband's brother must cohabit with her, making her his wife, and thus performing a brother-in-law's duty to her.
6 The first-born son whom she bears will then perpetuate the name of the dead brother, so that his name will not be obliterated from Israel.
7 If the man does not wish to take his brother's wife, the sister-in-law shall go up to the elders in court, and declare, 'My brother-in-law refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel, and will not consent to perform his brotherly duty with me.'
8 The elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. If he remains firm, he must say, 'I do not want to take her.'
9 His sister-in-law shall then approach him before the elders, take off his shoe and spit toward his face. She shall then declare, 'This is what shall be done to the man who will not build up a family for his brother.'

Compare that with:

"8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also."

Oran seems to have no trouble marrying his brothers widow, or having sex with her. His problem seems to be with the idea that the child born would socially be considered his brothers and not his.

In the first instance the brother openly shuns marrying the widow while in the second instance the brother, appears, to public view to be doing the socially accepted thing while in truth betraying the purpose. In a sense, he is living a lie.

(Kind of reminds me of Bush. Bush joined TANG (appears to be doing the socially accepted thing) but fails to fulfill the responsibilities of the commitment he appeared to have made [a lie]).

Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11) similarly are killed for lying. "Before you sold the property, it belonged to you; and after you sold it, the money was yours...You have not lied to men - you have lied to God! As soon as Ananias heard this, he fell down dead."

What was "wicked" was Oran's lie, not the act of withdrawl itself.

[DruidSmith]

Yet more twists of interpretation by those who would seek to opress and control the faith, independence and liberties of others.