Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

cowshoes,

i'd say since both christianity and islam were propogated through imperial institutions, the embedded goal of both is domination; and if the end requires a means "by the sword" they will not hesitate to use it. thats why even today xtianity and islam are interlocked in a cultural war.

[Cowshoes]

Kinison,

Our government here in the States isn't an imperial institution, yet most U.S. citizens are Cristians (or xtians, if you prefer). I predict there's no chance of the U.S. becoming an 'Islamic Republic' any time soon. As far as 'Using the Sword' to achieve religious goals, I think the Cristians(in the U.S.) have the moral high ground simply because they don't use the sword anymore to achieve those goals. U.S. Cristians WILL use the sword to protect the weak from the strong when the strong brutalize and murder the weak because of their religious or political beliefs.

Originally posted by COWSHOES
Islam is not growing very fast in my neighborhood. In fact, I don't think there are any Muslims at all in my 'hood. My neighbors in the houses to the left and right of my house are Indians. The ones to the left own a convienience store that sells beef food products, so I doubt they're Hindus. The ones on the right are Cristians. I trade with the ones on the left and my 11 year old nephew is best friends with the young son of the ones on the right. We're all friends.
Is it true that people who refuse to 'convert' to Islam are considered evil by many Muslims and are to be destroyed? What does the Muslim Holy Book say about this?

Allah, the Almighty says in the Qur’an:

1- "God forbids you not with regard to those who have not fought you in the cause of religion, nor expelled you from your homes, that you should be considerate and deal justly with them, surely God loves the just. Indeed, God forbids you only with regard to those who have fought you in the cause of religion and expelled you from your homes and have helped in expelling you, that you should take them for friends. And whoever takes them for friends, they are the evil-doers." (60:8-9)

A-The Prophet's instructions to Commanding Chiefs:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to instruct his commanding chiefs saying: “Fight in the cause of Allah. Fight those who deny Allah; Do not be embittered. Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children or those (people) in convents.”

B-Abu-Bakr's instructions to Usama's Campaign on Syria:

“Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or bum palm trees or fruitful trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for


2- (O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).) (Al-Hujrat: 13)

3- "There is no compulsion in religion" (Al-Baqara:256).

You can browse the Qur'an on this link:

http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/surah.asp


4- An Arabic word for non-Muslim is Dhimmi. Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them in more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.

5-“Palestine was captured by Umar, the second Caliph after the Prophet himself. The entry of the Caliph into Jerusalem, the tolerance, maturity and kindness he showed towards people of different beliefs, introduced the beautiful age that was beginning. The British historian and Middle East expert Karen Armstrong describes the capture of Jerusalem by Umar in these terms in her book Holy War:
The Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem mounted on a white camel, escorted by the magistrate of the city, the Greek Patriarch Sophronius. The Caliph asked to be taken immediately to the Temple Mount and there he knelt in prayer on the spot where his friend Mohammed had made his Night Journey. The Patriarch watched in horror: this, he thought, must be the Abomination of Desolation that the Prophet Daniel had foretold would enter the Temple; this must be Antichrist who would herald the Last Days. Next Omar asked to see the Christian shrines and, while he was in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the time for Muslim prayer came round. Courteously the Patriarch invited him to pray where he was, but Omar as courteously refused. If he knelt to pray in the church, he explained, the Muslims would want to commemorate the event by erecting a mosque there, and that would mean that they would have to demolish the Holy Sepulchre. Instead Omar went to pray at a little distance from the church, and, sure enough, directly opposite the Holy Sepulchre there is still a small mosque dedicated to the Caliph Omar.”
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism6.htm

6- Aishah, the Mother of believers and the wife of the prophet, reported that a group of Jews entered upon the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and said:`As-Samu Alaikum" (i.e. death be upon you). `Aishah said: I understood it and said "Wa Alaikum as-Samu wal Al-L'ana" (death and the curse of Allah be upon you). The Messenger of Allah said: "Be calm O, `Aishah! Allah loves that one should be kind and gentle in all matters." I said: "O, Allah's Prophet, haven't you heard what the Jews have said?" Allah's Prophet said: "I have already said to them, And upon you" [Note: Agreed upon, Al-Lu `Iu" Wal Marjan (No.1400)]

The Prophet made things easy when he said: "And upon you" which means, death be upon you too, as we all are going to die and that is inevitable for both of us!

7- Al-Bukhari narrated that:"Once, a funeral procession was passing by, and the Prophet (Peace he upon him) stood up for it. When he was told that it was the funeral procession of a Jew, he exclaimed: "Does he not possess a soul?"

8- Ibn `Abbas said that a Muslim should return the greetings to Jews, Christians or Magians for Allah says: "And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with one better than it." [Note: Reported by Al-Bukban in Al-Adab Al-Mufrad (No.1107)] (4:86)

An excellent discussion on this issue could be found on this link:

Religious Freedom in the Eyes of Shari`ah

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...hFatwaID=81396

You should note that:

1- All the churches, monastries, and synagougues found before Islam in the states that the Muslims have conquered, such as the Levant, Egypt, and Iraq still exist.

2- The are a lot of native Christians and Jews who are living in those countries, i.e. they couldn't have existed if Islam is cruel as thought by some.

3- Fanatism is found everywhere and anywhere regardless of religions, and it has its own interpretations of the holy scripts.

Originally posted by kinison
cowshoes,

i'd say since both christianity and islam were propogated through imperial institutions, the embedded goal of both is domination; and if the end requires a means "by the sword" they will not hesitate to use it. thats why even today xtianity and islam are interlocked in a cultural war.

OK John Lennon, neither the Vikings nor the other ancient civilization were bloodyless, most viking myths and stories were war-related.

COWSHOES

Didn't the good old Americans kill enough Indians to make sure they take all the land?

Didn't the States go to Vietnam (and Iraq now) just to prove its superiority? No evidence of WMD, YET

[Cowshoes]

I know what you meant when you said Indians. You made a valid point, Khaled76. Certainly a black mark in American history. Saudi Princes love Native American casinos though.
Vietnam? Yep. Another black mark. Not because of our soldiers- because of our leaders at that time.

Now were getting to the present day which I want to focus on. I agree with those who say Saddam himself was a WMD. I'm sure Saudis are just as appalled at the brutal way Saddam and his thugs treated Iraqi citizens as the rest of the civilized world is.
Finally, If Muslims can't control the radical fringe elements of their community (9-11), Then I have a feeling the non-Muslim community will control them for you.(B-52)

[theja]

Kini, remember Christians were persecuted for the first three centuries. It still is the same in some parts of the world. The Bible advocates winning the world with God's love (John 3:16). So by citing history where many things were messed up you cannot infer your imperialism ideology on biblical Christianity.

Druid, remember "PROGRESSIVE" revelation.

If, winning the world with LOVE is the prime motive in Christianity, then why is the the law the main point in your posts? Right from the beginning your faith has been plagued with this, Peter insisted that all non-jews be circumsised, (first attempt at control) insisting that they become Jewish! And with all the disussion on this page in the form of LAW or rules, I wonder what your prime motives are? The law must be well and truly grounded in your hearts,(obviously) and love is something you give, ONLY after the rules have been met. Its easy to hide behind the letter,rather than live the rule. Whats the the point of endless debate on LAW? You wont win anybody to your faith with that. Ask yourself this, is the argument for your doctrine, OR to make the world a better place.....

Originally posted by COWSHOES
I know what you meant when you said Indians.

Latinos: Hispanics
Blacks: African Americans
Indians: Native Americans
White folks: Americans

Whatever, but it is still categorization...

Originally posted by COWSHOES
You made a valid point, Khaled76. Certainly a black mark in American history.

Not to mention racial descriminations that was active until few decades ago

Originally posted by COWSHOES
Saudi Princes love Native American casinos though.
.

If those Saudi princes were minding running their country in a responsible manner, none of your troops would have stepped on an Arabic or a Muslim land.

King Faisal, may he RIP, banned any Saudi oil exports to the west back in the 70s when there was an attempt to use force against Egypt and Syria in the 1973 war with Israel.
Ironically, he was assasinated by a cousin of his who was told later to be mentally ill. What a coincidence!!

Originally posted by COWSHOES
Vietnam? Yep. Another black mark. Not because of our soldiers- because of our leaders at that time.

So I wonder who voted for those leaders.

Originally posted by COWSHOES
Now were getting to the present day which I want to focus on. I agree with those who say Saddam himself was a WMD. I'm sure Saudis are just as appalled at the brutal way Saddam and his thugs treated Iraqi citizens as the rest of the civilized world is.

I'm not defending Saddam at all. However,before the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq, people used to have food on their tables, ladies walked safely in the streets, and there were courts and order, at least.

In the present, none of the above is present. Using Depleted Uranium by US troops back in 91 and other weapons in last year's invasion doesn't imply anything but brutality.

I like it when you guys use the civilized world term to justify anything that this part of the world does to the less-civilized people. The so called civilized world would be civilized from your prospective and depending on the angle you are looking from. I hope walking in down town New York or Atlanta after 7 PM would be possible. You have made Iraq nothing but less civilized to be honest, aiming to break the people.

Originally posted by COWSHOES
Finally, If Muslims can't control the radical fringe elements of their community (9-11), Then I have a feeling the non-Muslim community will control them for you.(B-52).

Thank you very much, buy any child in the Arabic world or any presidential counselor who took a 101 Politics course knows that OBL wouldn't have anything to do with Saddam. They are so ideoligically different (if Saddam had any ideology at all but his interest). This invasion was for nothing but a domination act.

COWSHOES, this forum is dedicated to discuss religions rather than politics. I understand that religion and politics are always related. However, people come here for a pure theological reason, so let's keep it that way. Some people who have interpreted religious scripts recently are not to be discussed here. I didn't mention anything about the born-again Evangilist G.Dubyuh and his beliefs, who wants to discipline the world but still cannot discipline his under-age family members from their bad drinking habits.


However, I'd be more than happy to give answers based on my knowledge to your questions about Islam, just like you've done in your previous post.

Khaled: Sorry to say that most so called born-again people adhere to this mentality, and cannot differentiate between politics and their faith. In my last post This is my point! Sadly its still; do it my way or die. Trying to reach a dialog is beyond them, they are blinded by ignorance, and have NOT used their faith for the betterment of mankind, only to argue dogma on some web page. Iraq is the best example of this! And if we lived by our CONVICTIONS, the world would NOT be as it is today. And even if I dont adhere to a faith, debate is still what it is, and you have my respect for the fact that you give thought-out and intelligent answers to the previous guestions that I have asked you. Debate: We agree to disagree.. And yes So-called Christians do use the sword, THEY elected the current representatives in Washington....

[Edited by flybynight on 1st February 2004 at 17:27]

[Cowshoes]

Touche'! Khaled76. I stand corrected. I should have made a distinction between Saddam and OBL.

It seems to me that in the Muslim world, politics and religion are intertwined so tightly.

Is the behavior of OBL and/or the Taliban consistent with what's written in the Qur'an?

I respect your knowledge of the Qur'an and if the Taliban is interpreting it wrong, I believe you would know. Particularly in the way the Taliban treated women in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by theja
Kini, remember Christians were persecuted for the first three centuries. It still is the same in some parts of the world. The Bible advocates winning the world with God's love (John 3:16). So by citing history where many things were messed up you cannot infer your imperialism ideology on biblical Christianity.

but, i can use my "imperialism ideology" when talking about the church...saying "many things were messed up" is a meaningless excuse.

thej, remember when the church gained power they were no better with the persecuting. lets also remember xtians persecuted other xtians. and yes i know it is the same in some parts of the world, i have a friend who is a bengali christian; but this "same in some parts of the world" is post-israel- white christian americans used to vacation in beirut and baghdad.

and many who advocate for the bible have blamed 9-11 on the pagans, atheists, and gays in this country. winning the world with god's love is all fine and dandy, although it seems paul had no trouble lying here and there, especially about his pharisaic background. is it winning the world with god's love when xtian evangelists convert illiterate people in india?

funny that when people like you talk about the persecuting of xtians in sudan or china, nobody ever mentions the animists, falun gong, or buddhists, but i guess the persecution is their own fault, right? i see that as having malice in propogating your religion and a will to dominate.

so, sauron, before you respond just remember what richard muouw, an evangelist journalist btw, has written, "us christians should worry when we start to win popularity contests", meaning much like when there was an overnight conversion of romans- christianity does adopt an "imperial ideology". just ask yourself, theja, why is it just me and freethinkers and atheists and secular humanists worry when everybody else is yelling, "this is a christian country" and then the u.s. goes around and acts like the roman
empire?

but to be on your side for once, if you listen to khaled, the muslim world(minus the western influences and dictators) is a no stealing, no adultery, no sinning, period, utopia...but i'd say hes been taking too much opium.

Originally posted by COWSHOES
Touche'! Khaled76. I stand corrected. I should have made a distinction between Saddam and OBL.

If that "Touche'" was only your mistake based on your personal point of view, I'd careless.

The US government is basing the whole invasion on that "touche'"...What a mistake!! Surely it wasn't a mistake, and surely they didn't find WMD, and surely this war is both interest and ideology based.

That's when a "Touche'" becomes a collision between weapons and human flesh rather than between pool balls.

It seems to me that in the Muslim world, politics and religion are intertwined so tightly.[/b]

What's your definition of the word "Religion"? Wouldn't you agree with me that "Ideology" would come across your mind?

then, Capitalism is a religion, Communism is a religion, secularity and avoiding religion is a religion as well, living life so as to have fun, smoke Marijuana, talk about peace and playing guitar is another religion. Loving to conquer and dominate is a religion. Your mood could dictate your religion.

And after discussing the above part about war motives, I think the US is interwining religion with its policies strongly.

The US isn't only about "Mad about you", "Friends", or "Sue, the FBI eye". It has radical militant groups (Remember Oklahoma?) that would confront the army if they want. and they are gaining public support as well. And Washington would prefer sending troops to conquer other countries while leaving those alone buying whatever weapons the want??!! they must be, somehow, complacent with them.

Is the behavior of OBL and/or the Taliban consistent with what's written in the Qur'an? [/b]

Islam wasn't revealed to OBL, it was revealed 1400 years ago and the Islamic history and the holy Qur'an could be reached in books and from reliable websites such as:

http://www.islamonline.com

The closest companions to the Prophet PBUH (one was his cousin and both married his daughters) the 3rd and 4th Caliphs Othman ibn Affan and Ali ibn abi Talib were killed by what were called "Muslims", which fulfilled a prophetic prophecy unfortunately.

If OBL really did 9-11, then he is a sinner from my prospective. He killed unarmed citizens where there some Muslims among as well. And killing a soul is one of the major sins as highlighted before in a reply:"... killing a soul whom Allah has forbidden us to kill, except when it is lawful..." and those citizens weren't holding rifles or so. Check the Re:Getting back to where it started

I wouldn't ask you about what your other fellow Americans do, because what you do reflects your ideology.

I respect your knowledge of the Qur'an and if the Taliban is interpreting it wrong, I believe you would know. Particularly in the way the Taliban treated women in Afghanistan. [/b]

Before answering you let my say something about treating women in the States:

-I heard that rape rates in your civilized country and domestic violince are one of the highest in the world.

- Now when programs like Joe Millionaire show ladies like slaves running after that idiot for his money, and that reality TV shows such as this gets public attraction, you've got issues Cowshoes. All the ladies are educated middle class chicks who represent a big portion of the American society. Do you want me to judge all American ladies based on those? I won't

BTW, Afghanistan isn't the only Islamic country in the world. Afghanistan geographically doesn't lie on any sea and it has a rough rocky-mountain terrain, without much of resources. Let's put you there for 6 months and see how would things go with you later. I know it's a tough society by nature when it comes to dealing with either men or women.

The same thing goes for most countries in the world. People who live by the seaside in Saudi are different from those who live in the inside. People who live in California and the east coast differ than those living in the middle and around swamps.

Originally posted by kinison
but to be on your side for once, if you listen to khaled, the muslim world(minus the western influences and dictators) is a no stealing, no adultery, no sinning, period, utopia...but i'd say hes been taking too much opium.

Kinison, that was really funny. Didn't say that our societies are flawless, otherwise we wouldn't be human beings. It's that the rates are much less than in other societies and religion is helping in that, based on my logical appraoch. Don't deny that.....

flybynight

Your feedback is really aprreciated...

And that faith thing, tell me if you need me to try something to prove it to you...

How do you say goodbye in your language?

[theja]

Gays persecuted in the US? Hahahaha.... now you're taking too much opium, Kinison.

It is the other way around. Gays, a minority, less than 1% of the population, has been trying to impose its lifestyle on the rest of the country. They can buy house, fly around the country, sue the govt., etc. If you mean by persecution a few wild individuals hating them, that's not a wide one.

The most persecuted people worldwide today are Christians (many at the hands of the peaceful Muslims). Only someone in denial or in ignorance will disagree on this one.